Program Host - Fore Golfers Network with Butch Harmon
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There is only one Butch Harmon, think about this. So we're the only professional sports is governed by amateur rules, the NFL football and the college football is not even the same side today. We will dig into his thoughts on all things live. I have a big problem with the media trying to make it a human rights issue. Look up, our government does business with Saudi Arabia. Every big corporation in the world has business with them. So I don't know why they pick on the golf for doing what they did, the state of instruction. You wouldn't really teach anybody to do what Arnold's doing, falling all over the place and that really dirty follow through and jacks huge turn and big reverse. See, but see what happens is when they were younger. They weren't a product of what we have today. Unfortunately, with launch monitors, video and everything and so much more on this special edition of the Four Golfers Network podcast. The following is a presentation of hops and media who This is the 44 Golfers Network podcast. Hey, a rule is a rule and let's face it without rules. There's chaos where we celebrate the greatest game on earth. Have you seen anything like that? Please welcome your host, a man with a face for radio, Bill Hobson. Now, you don't want to overthink not an issue. I'm never playing golf with him again. You're kind, you're a good storyteller in your own, right? And I love doing your show because she loved the game. Hello, friends and welcome into the Four Golfers Network podcast as we officially launch season six. Yeah, we've been around for a little bit of time. Our flagship program, Michigan Golf Live enters its 24th season. But six years ago, we created this digital channel called the Four Golfers Network. And it's so good to have you along for the ride with us. Thank you for subscribing to the podcast and helping us share the word by spreading the link or spread the word by sharing the link or one of those two forms of communication. We're so thankful for that too because today we have a very special conversation with one of the true legends of the game over the past decade and a half or so. He has become a friend and it is always a joy to connect with Butch Harmon, a man who has brought more players to the number one ranking in the world than any other instructor. And as Butch always likes to joke and every one of them fired me at some point. So I know I'm not gonna hurt your game too much. So, we will have some fun here in the moments ahead, talking about everything in golf, including live, including Phil and the decisions that he's been making. The state of instruction, the state of equipment, what's happening at Augusta National and so much more enjoy our conversation with Butch Harmon. It has been far too long since I've had the privilege of connecting with the legend. Butch Harmon who checks in with us now, from the comfort of a home in which he's been kind of confined for a few weeks here because of all the stuff going around and Butch, it is good to, to finally catch up with you. How are you doing? My friend? Well, I'm, I'm hanging in there, you know, bill, I had a little bout with COVID, so I was kind of locked up in my guest room for two weeks. My wife put the hiatus on me. I could come out to have a meal with a mask on, but that was about it. And then I get out of there and my back went out on me and I got a brace on my back. And at the moment I'm not swinging any golf clubs, but you know, something when you're 79 years old stuff just happens. That's for sure. As the comedian, Brian Regan says, his doctor told him that at this point in life when something hurts, it's just going to hurt forever. So just get used to. Well, I've had back problems for a long time, but it's been pretty good, but I'll get over it. It's not, it's not anything that needs surgery or anything. So, you know, but let's talk about because we've had a very, very interesting year. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it's amazing. You know, we haven't really spoken much of this season, so we do have a lot of things to catch up on And I've noticed from time to time that we will hear just really brief reports of a struggling player who will be making a trip to go see Butch Harmon and, um, and then lo and behold, about three weeks later, we start to see some improvement in that player's performance. Um And yet I, I thought Bush was retiring from all of this. So does the phone keep ringing even though it's not supposed to. Well, um, semi retired, meaning I don't go to any tournament. The masters is the only one I went through this past year because I do TV for Sky in Europe for that. Uh So I don't go to any of them, but the young man you're talking about who we had had great success for five or six years. And then when I semi retired in 19, he chose to go to someone else. We're talking about Rickie Fowler obviously and really went all the way down out of the top 1 50 in the world. And he called me a couple of months ago and wanted to come back. So we, we literally just started doing it video back and forth, emailing, texting back and forth the video. And my brother Craig is a member down at the medalist for Ricky's. Remember Craig is a great teacher. So he actually became my eyes for me on what I was telling Vicki to do and how I was explaining for him to do it and, and the transformation that was so quick, it was unbelievable. He came right out, finished sixth and then lost the playoff and he's back to being Rickie Fowler again. Actually, maybe swinging better than he ever has to give you a little insight. Last month, we have a big pro member. Now, the Floridian and, and Ricky, I got Ricky to play. He was playing with Giles Kibbe, our president of the club, Jim Crane's attorney, the Astros and Crane worldwide. And, uh, they won the thing, but I played with him three of the four rounds. And how about this for a four round stretch? He went 60 to 62 64 62. You think he's back? Well, you know, it begs the question that I probably every golfer wrestles with, but certainly even at the top echelon of the game, where does it go? You've had it, you've had it for years, you've made a living with it and then it just went somewhere. So where do you find everyone goes into, even the Great Jack Nicholson Tiger Woods had a year span where they didn't win a lot. But, you know, if you're tinkering with a swing and as you know, me, I don't have any system, I don't believe in the system because I believe everybody's different. And so the things I do with one player would be completely different than I do with another player. And a lot of the younger teachers tend to cookie cut things, you know, just work for. So and so, so let's do that and I'm not knocking the way they do things. It just isn't the way I was raised to do it. And so I think, you know, Ricky got away from the things we did trying to get better, not trying to get worse, obviously. And after three years, he just realized it hadn't worked that he had regressed so bad. And, uh, so he called me and wanted to come back and Ricky's wonderful kid, I loved his house and they're just a great people. And so it was a joy to get him back. The fix was pretty easy. His swing has gotten very flat, probably got way behind him. Uh, you know, I had to change the plane of the left arm going back and had to put more hip turned in the backswing to get the arms up. And, you know, it wasn't like I hadn't seen a swing before because we had a good run for five or six years. So anyway, he's happy as a lark and he's back on the right track. He will play his first event in Palm Springs. I still call it the Hope, I guess it's the American Express, whatever they call it now. But that will be his first trip out. It'll be very interesting to see how he does so far. Everything has been even more special than I thought it could be that soon. To be honest with you though, how much of it is confidence, how much of it's between the ears. Well, once I got his swing back where he felt comfortable and started seeing what I call the ball coming out of the same window every time you look up, trajectory wise, shape wise. Uh I gave him instant feedback that he was doing the right thing and they're from there on, he just worked really hard and, and played a lot and practiced a lot because putting came back, you know, he had lost his putting there for a while, of course, when you're putting for pars instead of birdies and puts a lot more stress on you. Um, and so he feels so comfortable about it and mentally, he's back to being confident and probably more confident than he's ever been. And I don't mean that in an arrogant or cocky way, just more confident in his ability in his golf swing to function under the big pressure that he used to be able to function them before and that he had lost. So I really look forward to seeing him have a great year. This year. The game needs Rickie Fowler to play. Well, he's one of the most popular guys out there. He's one of the few guys that you can say. Well, actually bring people into a tournament. What I mean by that people would actually go up and buy a ticket because I want to go see Rickie Fowler. Now, there aren't many of them they'll do that for and he happens to be one of them that can drive that needle. So hopefully he can maintain what we've done. And it's up to me to make sure I keep them on the right track. And I think we've got a good start. You know, you say that about the ticket sales and you're so correct. So spot on and I'm also reminded that that you've worked with a number of players who would sell tickets, who people would walk up to the gate and say I want to come see this person play. Uh The most obvious of course, would be Tiger. But, and we'll get to that in a bit. But I gotta ask you about one of the other guys because man Butch, when we first met probably a dozen years ago now doing a TV show in Northern Michigan, you told a story about Phil Mickelson that literally had you with tears in your eyes because of his kindness and his generosity. Um You mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that a lot of things have happened this year in the world of golf. And that might be the lead story line. In my summary of 2022 is the, the difference in the perception and the popularity of Phil Mickelson. What is your thought on all that's transpired in his world with live and with the gambling and with all of the controversy, well, it's really gone from being the top of the world that's falling off the world. To be honest, with his golf game has struggled tremendously. He's a non issue on the live tour. Obviously, the gambling problems have been documented the amount of money that he'd lost, you know, who knows what's going on in his personal life. That's, that's none of my business. But I think the perception of him and I know Phil very well. He is a very kind and generous person, but he's kind of hit a rock bottom, so to speak. And sometimes it takes someone to fall to rock bottom before they can pick themselves up and say, well, I'd better start all over again and do X Y Z. And so it'll be interesting to see what happens. But until this year, I know a lot of his friends down in Southern California, they used to play a lot of golf with him. Haven't seen much of him. I have not talked to him. I, I did get one text from him, which was very nice. Other than that I really don't know what he's been doing and, and how things are going. I just know that it's been a disastrous year. I mean, a person who was really loved on the tour, maybe more than even Tiger, to be honest with it because he had more longevity than Tiger did. And, uh, it'll be interesting to see how he comes out of this. Uh, you know, he's, he was going to be one of the stars of living. He's really about a non issue, to be honest with you. Has it surprised you just to watch it all happen? Very few people have been as close to him as you have. I don't, I don't know if you treat it like a father figure or not, but it seems like it would be hard to watch. Well, I knew about all of this stuff that's going on. It's not like I didn't know about it. I mean, close proximity to him and then to what goes on on the tour especially. So I knew all of these things were there. Uh, it just seemed like a snowball going downhill. One thing came out and another thing came out and another thing came out of that snowball got bigger and bigger and, you know, it's, it's, I don't know how he could personally handle it. It's gone from everybody loving Phil Mickelson, everything to you and I having this conversation about what's wrong with Phil. Uh, am I surprised? Yeah, I, I am kind of surprised to be honest with you. Uh, you know, he just won a major championship, what, a year ago he won the P B A 21 at the, The oldest guy ever to win a major championship. So we can't say that this game was bad. Although having said that bill that year, he had played not very well leading after that PDA win and not very well after it, but he did win a major in 51 or 52 years old, which is pretty impressive. So it'll be an interesting year. There's a lot of interesting things that we can look forward to in 23, that's for sure. You know, we'll get into the lip stuff and all that and the back and forth of the PGA tour. I'm sick of that. So it's gonna be interesting to see what happens. Augusta has made their statement and they are going to honor anyone that's eligible to play in. The masters will be given an invite, which I kind of thought they would do all along. I think, I think you see all the majors do that because they want the best field they can have. Now, people who have fallen out of the top 50 in the world who get in these majors, that's a different story. They're gonna have to, you know, the, the, the opening US open are both open so anyone can try and qualify. So that's gonna be interesting. The masters has already made their statement. There's six guys playing on the live that our former masters. You got DJ, you got Patrick Reed Garcia got, Well, then you got Charles Schwartzel. They've all won the Masters before. So that's six of them that people were saying they weren't going to get invited to, which I never thought would happen. I always thought they would. But I think the interesting thing for me to the live players and there's a bunch of them that will get in from top 50 in the world that are former champions. Uh You know, Ken Smith is, will be there. Uh I was looking at the list this morning. Uh Taylor ***** is still in the top 50. Harold Varner went from 94 to 45 as I teach for the two that just snuck in were Kevin nine and 49 50th. So they, they will be in Adrian answer is another one that's in there. So it's, it's very interesting to what's gonna happen. Having said all that. I think golf is a great place. I think, I think uh kind of put a cap on this live thing. Look, I believe in free enterprise. I have no problem with the guys doing what they did. The guys that went there. I have a big problem with the media trying to make it a human rights issue. Look up, our government does business with Saudi Arabia. Every big corporation in the world does business with them. So I don't know why they took on the golf. Let's for doing what they did. Having said that I don't like the verbal pillow fight that's going on between live and the PGA tour. I think it needs to be lived. The PGA tour used to be the PGA tour and let's just figure out a way some, somehow someday to get together. You can remember the old NFL and NFL, you know, different. The NBA was different back in the day. So this, this is not something that you do this and it'll work itself out. But let's stop the verbal fights. And for those guys that went over to the live, you know, for every decision you make in life, there are consequences and they knew what the consequences were. They knew they weren't gonna be able to play a PG two events. So quit trying to go back over there and play. You made your choice. You took the money. I don't blame you for taking the money. If somebody offered me 100 million, I couldn't get there fast enough. Nor could you. The biggest problem I had was at the start and nobody would say that they didn't say they did it for the money. They said, well, we're going to grow the game we're gonna play last, which I don't, I don't think was true. If you listen to Bubba Watson, excuse me, Pat Perez and held one of the third in their statements. They were very honest. They said I did this for security of my family. This is an opportunity for me to try out my life, the rest of my life and make sure my family is well taken care of and everybody can understand that. And if everybody had said that, I think there would be less controversy about it. But then you have, you have Greg in Monaghan, the two commissioners, they butt heads. So it's, I think all of that has to stop. And let's just play golf, let's just play golf and see what happens. Let me interrupt this conversation for about 30 seconds to invite you into another podcast I host. And if you're a sports fan, you're going to love it. It's called Church Pew sports where we connect sports to matters of life and faith and do it in a way that the entire family could listen without you having to turn the volume down, think of it like barstool, but without all the swearing. So it's more than golf. It's everything under the umbrella of sports on church pew sports. You'll find it everywhere. Podcasts are found or on church pew sports dot com. Now, back to more of the four golfers network podcast, I don't think there's been a figure as desperately in need of an effective pr agency as Greg Norman clearly is. Um, now nobody, you've worked with him so closely you were there. Took him to world number one is Greg, the arrogant ***** that he's being made out to be, or are we being misled in the public perception arena? Well, I think if you go back 27 years, this was his idea. This was his whole idea and he had it done. He had, I think we had a deal with Murdoch with Fox to do the TV. And I think demon might have been the commissioner in those days and they got together with Nicholas and Congress said no, we wouldn't do it. Uh, but Raymond Floyd and Nick Price, Fred couples, they were kind of all in and then they pulled out the last minute. So he's had a for want of a better word ******* for the PGA tour for a long time. Haven't said that. I think his statements have been ridiculous. I also think that you can say the same thing about Monahan with the PGA tour. I think the way he's handling has been terrible to some of his statements have been bad. And how ironic that all of a sudden the PGA tour found $250 million. I mean, where did that come from? A good thing? There are good things coming out of the lifting for the PGA tour members. So is there any concern on your part? Um And, and you, you've taught a number of the guys who have made that, that trip over there? You mentioned Harold uh D J uh some others. Is there any concern on your part with, with how that association with the Saudi money impacts their legacy or their perception? There, there are, I gotta tell you, butch, there are some things I would like to think that I just would not do because they would go counter to what I believe even if there was a giant price tag on there. Um Now I've never been offered $100 million to do anything and, but I would like to think I'd like to, maybe I'm maybe I'm kidding myself. But I'd like to think that I've got a solid enough foundation where there are some lines I wouldn't cross even if there were a lot of commas and zeros on there. Are you concerned for any of your guys that you're close to that? They may have made a decision that they're going to regret. I'm really not and I'm concerned for you because you're taking 100 million no matter where it's coming from. Try me real quick. Uh No, I'm not, I've talked to Dustin quite a bit about, uh, he's very happy with where he is. You know, the guy, one playdate events last year, 1 35 million. Just, just put that out there. Played eight events in 1 35 million on top of the whatever it was 131 150 mil and he's getting paid to be there. He's won two majors. He's not one that really cares about as you well know what anybody says about him. One of the things makes him so good. He lives in his world and he's very content with it. I said that Charles Warner, who I do coach and I had talked, tried to talk him out of doing it and he got a little crossways with the PGA tour over a few things that he wasn't very happy about. So he went and did it. You know, they got paid. I think 30 million is the number he got, just got a new baby. And, you know, I don't disagree with what you're saying, to be honest with you, I think everybody has to live within themselves and the things that are important to them. But I'll go back to what I said, our government does a tremendous amount of business with them. Every large corporation in the world. There's a lot of business where people aren't going to stop by and have merchandise because they do business with Saudi. So I think it's, I agree with what you're saying, it's a personal thing that people have to look themselves in the mirror and my okay doing this and are not okay doing it. So, you know, players on, on the tour have been paid under the table for years. You know, the PGA tour will tell you that there is no show up money that they don't pay money to, to play in the event. But that's not necessarily true because if you have corporate sponsors, they will pay you a lot of money to come have dinner with a client that week. So you are getting paid to be there. So there's a little hypocrisy there with the PGA tour. I just think that we just kind of let this thing play out and see where it goes. I don't know what the endgame is. I don't know what the Saudis endgame is. I don't know what the endgame is. I think we just have to see where it goes, Bill and where it goes it goes and from the, from the amateur level demand for the game, I don't think it's ever been higher if so. I can't remember in exact time. I mean, t times equipment, every facet of the game has gone through the roof since, since COVID, like people rediscovered the joy of being outdoors. Have you seen that spill over into what you do? COVID. COVID was the biggest push that our games had in 10, 15 years because you could go outdoors and do it. I mean, all clubs, rounds are up, revenues up, more people playing golf, more women playing, more kids, playing, more older people playing, more husband and wife playing together. Uh, so it's been a great godsend for the manufacturers, especially. They, unfortunately, because it's quite get all their equipment at one time. But when they started getting their, selling more equipment than they've ever sold. So, golf, golf is in a good place, both professionally and amateur. I mean, we've got this little scar going on between these two different organizations, but I think that's gonna work itself out and move on. I'm just anxious for the 23 season to start to see who's going to do. Well, we've got some young players that really played really well this year. Two of them, Tom Kim and Cam Young, I mean, my gosh, these guys came from nowhere. I mean, they were, they were so far back on the world ranking. Cam Young was 134th 9, 16. I mean, that's pretty impressive. Tom Kim was 131st night 15. I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Is, is it possible that with the defections from the tour over to live and some of those slots being opened up, might we be introduced to some new talent coming up that only a Butch Harmon would have known about otherwise? Yeah, I mean, look at the, look at the young man from Pepper night. I can't even pronounce his name, right. Uh, I can't pronounce his last name. Yeah, I, I struggle with his last time. This guy was 381st in the world last year. He's 40 thirties contending to win tournaments. I mean, I'll tell you one that you probably wouldn't think of that. I happen to know for the, from Vegas. I know his dad is the pro and Shadow Creek was Taylor Montgomery. He had a great season. He started out beautifully in this wraparound season. He was 361st and he's all the way up to 61 in the world. So there's some young people coming, there's guys coming back, look at Tommy Fleetwood was, it was kind of gone out of nowhere on the European tour and he's back to number 23 in the world. And so there's a lot of good stuff that's happening because of live there playing for more money on the PGA tour. More people have had an opportunity, uh, you know, with Cam Smith and Dustin Johnson gone two of the best players in the world. Uh, you know, that opened up a little bit of a spot at the top. But I mean, just look at where we are. I mean, if we take the world ranking, Rory's back to number one in the world against Shepherd, who's been on fire for two years is number two. But the next two guys, Cam Smith and Patrick Cantley and then Jon Rahm, how about these three guys? How about how consistent they are week in and week out always there, Cantley and rahm especially, I was a little surprised Ken Smith left and went to live as young as he is Having, you know, won a major and one of the players in the same year, but it is what it is. But I mean, these guys that, that are in the top 15 or 20 in the world, all of them are good. The one that I and I predicted, I thought he was going to be the best of the younger ones that didn't look that way at first. But this victor hobbling kid is really consistent man. He can play, he could really play. He's a guy that I think is going to have a phenomenal year will gallop. Torres was on that upscale and then he's been fighting injury. So we'll have to see how he comes back. So it's, but this young and Kim, I mean, nobody even knew who time Kim was until he wins Greensboro by making a quad on the first hole and then runs away and wins the tournament and know and everybody's telling me who the **** is this guy? Never heard of him. And then look at how he played in the Presidents Cup. So this kid all of a sudden became a star out of nowhere. I mean, literally out of nowhere, Cameron Young, his father is the golf pro at Sleepy Hollow in Westchester County where I grew up. This kid came out of nowhere. He, he almost won the open championship. This kid can really play. There's so many of these guys. That's why I say, I think the game is in a great place. We'll never see anyone dominate the number one ranked in the world like Norman and, and Woods did. It's more by committee now and to two of the names. Yeah, that was changing like a NASCAR race. Every, every other lap, there was somebody else in the lead and, and two of the names that you mentioned in Scheffler and Rahm remind me of something you said at the beginning of our conversation about Ricky. And that is, you know, you're not teaching a, a system or a particular swing to everybody when I watched both of those guys, I think, well, those are obviously completely personalized styles that they, that they play with. I watch in slow motion. I need you to explain this to me, but, you know, I'm a little slow, I watch in slow motion, the footwork of Scottie Scheffler and I can't figure out how he even makes contact with the ball and yet he's so stinking good at it. What, what am I seeing in his footwork? What you're seeing in golf in general? Bill is golf is a game of repetition. If you can recreate the repetition in your swing every single time, I don't care what it looks like. I mean, people would have said Jim Fear could never play, you know, one of the best players we've had. I mean, so there isn't any one way to do it. Every body, body, body type is different. And I have to commend Scottish chef was coach Randy who I know very well and he never tried to change that. He worked with him as a kid, you know. And so that's just how chef swings and he and Randy have worked so hard together through the years and I admire them for not changing that. You know, you could take it, just take our greatest players of all times that let's take, let's take Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer to the greatest stars we've ever had both very unusual golf swings and then you wouldn't really teach anybody to do what Arnold's doing, falling all over the place and that we really do. We follow through and Jack's huge turn and big reverse c but see what happens is when they were younger, they weren't a product of what we have today. Unfortunately, with launch monitors and video and everything. You know, it's not about the guy swing happy instructors today and then look at the guy swinging the ball, they go instantly to launch monitors away four degrees from the inside, three degrees down. Why don't you tell the guy why he's doing that? You know, in the old timers, they just swung the way they swung and that's how I was raised. And that's why if you look at the 30 or 40 tour players over the last 35 40 years, I've had success with only two of them look the same. And that's Tiger Woods. And Adam Scott and people say, well, you taught Adam to swing that way. No. And he came over to go to UNLV as a 18 year old freshman. That's how he swung because he watched Tiger Woods as a kid. And he and his dad who happens to be a golf role model that swing after Tigers. So all the others that I've had success with, I just never say my dad taught me to never take away when anybody does naturally. Just make it better because their natural motion is their natural motion. And you know, you think Scottie Shepherd's got strange footwork. Have you ever seen Bubba's footwork? I mean, that, that, that one is even more amazing than Scotty. So, what is it in the, maybe this is the secret sauce of a Butch Harmon. But what, where's that fine line between fixing something and changing what they come in with natural? Well, I try and never change what you do naturally. If there's flaws in it, we'll talk about it. A flaw being something that under pressure might not work as good if we can get you in a little different position. But the golf swing itself is gonna pretty much look the same. A lot of times guys will, will make changes in their swing and unless I slowed it down on our video that we have in our studios when I worked with them and showed you a little nuances that we changed. You probably wouldn't notice it. But little things become big things when the club head is moving over 100 miles an hour. Yeah, the magnification factor goes off the charts and I, that's why, that's why, what Scheffler does amazes me so much because there's so much movement and, you know, Justin Thomas has a little bit of the same thing and that left to the left, what's almost off the ground, it impact, you know, so there's, there's a lot of strange actions I happen to seniors and I have years on film. Thank God, we're not on TV. Here. I could show still the people your action because it's, it's, I wouldn't say that it's textbook works for you. I've been begging you to fix it for years. I told you the same thing I told Charles Barkley. Don't tell anybody I've ever given you a lesson because they watch the swing. You can ruin my career. You'll never get another phone call for the rest of your days. You're not that bad. You can play pretty well. Who, who right now in the women's game catches your eye. I know you worked for years and you've kind of become a, well, you've become a second father to Natalie and, and she's not necessarily competing because of health and all those things but is there somebody on the ladies tour right now that you, you just think has it all put together? Well, I think you've got the quarter sisters. They're both really good. You have Min Ji Li is phenomenal. You got Lydia Ko who's playing well. One of the girls that I've taught for the last four years is 15 times now, Daniel Kang is really good. She's really struggled this year with a back problem. She had a tumor that wrapped around her spine that put her out of the game for three months this year. But she will, she's back to playing good again. And I think the ladies game speaking at, uh, terrible to see that. We lost Kathy Whitworth the other day, the all time leading winner in all men's or women's got a real class act. To be honest with you, I think the women's game is the best it's ever been. They're starting to play for a little more money. There's even a rumbling that the live might do a ladies tour. Wouldn't that be something? Yeah, I think it would shut the LPGA down pretty much overnight, don't you? Well, yeah, because they don't really play for a lot of money on the LPGA. Unfortunately, I tell people I teach all the time. The average golfer you'd be better off to watch the LPGA events on the PGA tour because you can't do anything you see on the PGA tour. But you can't drive the 3 20 you can do the stuff these women do. And I'm telling you what these girls can really play. I mean, really play if you watch them now, they got good golf swings. The young ones coming out of college come right out and compete. I mean, it's, their tour is really strong with a lot of really good players. When the junior circuits began to really take off when young golfers began competing, traveling, whether it's a J G A or whether it's in their college careers, it seems like. And, and you can tell me if I'm observing this correctly, it seems like this generation has a level of fearlessness to what might possibly go wrong on the golf course that I don't know if the generation before them had as immediately it seems like they come out of the wrapper just afraid of absolutely nothing. Um, and, and are swinging for the fences on every shot. Well, let me explain to you how this happened and we see this in the young people that I either I teach the six instructors that I have to work for me to teach. We see kids that don't play football, basketball and baseball anymore. They start playing golf at five and six and 789, 10 years old. And that's all they do is play golf. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that's good because I think hand eye coordination is a big thing that the other sports teach you. But that's what we've seen. We've also seen the physicality of younger people and their body makeup change completely. If you go back to my dad's here, or then into my era, back in the sixties and seventies golfers were all, you know, five ft 725, 10 or something. Now, they're all 62636465. These, these kids are specimens. They are in shape education and teaching is so much better. There's so much more knowledge. And once you say is true, these kids, especially the ones that come out of college, they literally have no fear. Now, there's a very good reason for that. And that reason's name is Tiger Woods because the Phil Mickelson, the Davis love the Ernie Els. We can go on and on. They got their brains beat out by Tiger Woods for year after year, after year after year. No matter how good they were there, there. Isn't that anymore? So these kids, they've never had to experience that. Like those guys did. These kids come out of college right now? They're ready to go. I mean, in college programs are similar or even better than triple A in baseball. I mean, these kids come out ready and most of them only stay for a couple of years in college and then they come right out and they come right out and they start winning and they start to, like you said, they're fearless. Now, equipment has left that to let them, it's allowed them to hit the ball as far as they hit it because there's no way with the older equipment, with the persimmon drivers and softer golf balls, you could swing this hard, you'd spend it right off the planet. You never find the ball. And the USDA is a little bit of bogus organization that they say the ball hasn't changed much over the years. Are you kidding me, guys on the Champions tour at 55 hits further than they did when they were 25. You think they're better say? **** no. So, equipment has changed completely almost to the point where I think the tour probably needs to start making their own rules were the only professional sport. Think about this were the only professional sports is governed by amateur rules. The NFL football in the college football is not even the same size, completely different size. The NFL balls a little stubby, er, and fatter, the college football a little longer and sleeker. You look at the three point line and stuff and basketball, aluminum bats and baseballs were still playing under amateur rules. The tour is going to have to probably step up and do something about the velocity of the ball comes off of the carbon based on the characteristics of a ball aerodynamically. The longest hitters will still be the longest hitter. There's no doubt about that, but they're starting to make golf courses. Obsolete, to be honest with you. Well, we're seeing that even in some of the offseason, satellite imagery of Augusta National where we're getting these glimpses of the 13th tee. Now, I think it resides somewhere in South Carolina. Um, they've just bought up all the property nearby. Well, I was there about a month ago playing with my brothers and we walked back on the 13th. It's about 45 yards longer, but it's a shoot that you come out of and you're going to have to start it down the right with a little draw. The Raiders have got no place to start the ball. And I was concerned, uh, when they did it thinking that, gosh, I hope they don't take the excitement out of this hole because it's one of the most exciting holes in golf. And one of the days we played, Tony Pena was down there playing behind us when we got down. I asked him, uh, what did you hit on 13? Because I had 205 to the front. So I hit a four iron. He said, I think come April the ground might be a little firm where I'll probably be able to hit a five or six. And he said, but I have to draw it off the tee. Now, Tony is one of the longer hitters, but I was concerned it was going to make it where nobody would go for the green because he had no idea that slope from right to left and that's fair way when the ball is that far above your feet. But I think, I think it's a pretty good change. At first, I thought they really, all they had to do was lower the T and moving over to the left about 10 yards. And then they could see the thing was they were going over the trees on the left side. Bill, the long hitter, they hit a big high, stay back over the top of the trees and they wanted to take that away and everything at Augusta does. I think it's good because they try and make it to go back to give you the shots the guys were hitting 10, 15 years ago instead of the wedge to every hole. And so they've done a good job of that. And I think this is gonna be interesting to see how this plays. The weather will have a lot to do with it windy or wet conditions where the ball won't roll as much. But it's gonna be interesting to see how the guys handle. I've already talked to the guys that I work with it. Our failures and the guys, you're gonna have to work to draw the ball off of 13 because I was there. I saw it. There's no room to start it. How do we, how do we walk that fine line between a return to original shot values and a recognition of where technology is today. I mean, it's, It's got to be an awfully hard thing to think. We've got to return every hole and every course to where it was in 19, you know, 60, kind of a thing or even 1920. And at the same time, like you said, you don't want to make these courses obsolete so that they're just, you know, driver eight iron into every part five. How do we walk that fine line? Well, the tour could control that very easily without even changing anything. They could narrow the fairways to 25 yards wide and grow four inch rough and make the greens rock hard. I mean, you'd have to hit the ball in the fairway To be able to spin it. I mean, they don't do that. The tour events, most of them don't have much rough at all. So, the guys who hit it as far as they can, I don't care if it doesn't go on the fairway because they're only in a wedge degree in anyway. I've said this to you before and I've told you this, I thought Jose Maria had the best side gates. And how about we just go from 14 clubs to nine clubs, then we'll, then we'll find out who can hit shots and one of them be a putter. So then you only have eight clubs to hit shots with and you make up any configuration you want. And I'll be honest with you. I've been in this business my whole life, dad, with my dad being especially, I have no idea where the 14 club thing came from. I don't know whether how that number ever came about. Well, they changed it to nine. No, probably not, but it sure would be interesting to see an event played that way, wouldn't it, it really would actually, you know, every once in a while you get together with your buddies and you go out and try a four club challenge or you know, some other number, it's really quite adventurous. I you have to hit shots. You have to be creative. Who was the most creative shot maker you ever saw or worked with? Was it Sevy? Uh CB was amazing. Uh Tiger was amazing. Tiger works the ball right to left, left to right to the situation I think, said he had more imagination than anyone. He saw things differently than most people. Tremendous hands, did everything with his hands. I worked with 70 and 95 with the joy and uh he was amazing. Just amazing player. He put the European balls on the map. They were, they were nothing until he came along and said he put them right on the map with his charisma the way he played and just everything about it. I love you. Bubba Watson. I've never seen a guy curveball as much as Bubba Watson does even with modern equipment, which is hard to do. We can go back to when he won the masters that shot. He hit on number 10 from way down in the trees on the right hand side where he took that gap wedge and hit this big, gigantic looping hook that got on the green and he wins the match. And the interesting thing about that shot, a right hander could have hit that cut the ball, the ball would just go up in high and then kind of fall for the right to hook it. It goes up and plopped over. But his imagination on the way he plays to me is more than anybody in the game today because it's hard for these guys to curve The modern equipment, especially with the driver because the ball gets off the club face so fast. A lot of the guys that like to draw say they just can't draw it as much as they used to. So they have to change their sight lines a little, it's a little easier to cut it because that spin creates a little easier way to do it. But the Bubba Watson was, he could curve a shot 70 yards on the shower with nothing in his way. And that's just how he hits it. It's so impressive to watch Blue when they put the shot tracer on and you're like, oh my God, is that a boomerang? Is it going to come back and hit on this current? So much, it looks like shot. Tracker has a glitch in the system when they, whenever they use it on a bubba shot, you got that right. Butch, what does, uh, you know, when you watch him, what do you think Tiger has left in the tank? Well, I think, first of all, I'm, I'm so happy. I don't know if you saw the sequence at Augusta this year when I saw him for the first time since his accident, I went over and I gave a big hug and he went to shake hands and I said the **** with that, give me a hug, man. I'm happy to see you're alive. I'm happy to see you walking and being able to play, uh, from what we've heard from him recently is that he, he play, he can play fine. He just can't walk. So I think that's gonna be the whole thing if he can. Uh I thought the saddest thing that happened even though it was great speed was Tiger making the cut in the masters watching him trying to walk four rounds on that golf course. It's so hilly. I mean, I played there every year and it's unbelievable what he did. I thought was amazing considering the wheels that he's working with. So I think we just have to wait and see what happens as you know, and I've said this to you before on your show, you can never say never with Tiger Woods. Could be proven wrong. It's fun to watch him play with Charlie, that's for sure. It's fun to see him as a dad and see that young fellow kind of come along in the game too. Does, does the kid have game? You know, I've never seen it in person. I've only seen it on TV, but it's pretty impressive when you look at it, you know, it's hard, it's gonna be very hard for him. You look at everybody that tried to do it myself included. I mean, my father was a living legend and I tried to play and was never as successful as I thought I could have been. You look at Nicholas kids and Gary player's kids or, you know, so when your father's Tiger Woods, my gosh, the pressure this kid will have on him. If he plays good, the stock line will be, of course, he plays good. His father's Tiger Woods plays bad and you believe he played bad. His father's Tiger Woods. I had to live with a little of that myself back in my day. It's gonna be interesting to see and he right now he seems to be so into it And the mechanics of his swing looks so beautifully how, you know, and he's still not very big but is Charlie 12, 12 or 13, he's not very tall. Will he grow? And if he grows, what happens to the swing and stuff? So once again, that's another thing that time will tell what happens right now. It's pretty impressive. Although I will say this, I don't think he wins any junior tournament. At least I haven't read that he's won any but maybe don't play in many, I don't know. But what I've seen on TV is impressive. Well, one wonders if there will ever be a phone call from a 407 area code and the, I guess they're not in Orlando anymore, whatever the area code is two to Butch Harmon's phone and this time it's a different woods. Who knows what'll happen? We'll see. I think Justin Thomas's dad. Mike is the one that's taken care of them along with. Oh, there you go. Butch, it is. Um, it is, it has been far too long since we have checked in with each other. So, thank you for, for doing this and kind of rounding out the year in a great way. And I'm glad to hear that you're recovering from all the stuff because there's just stuff everywhere and we want, we want a healthy and feisty Butch Harmon around for a long time. Yeah, I wonder, I was looking forward to start playing some golf again. And, uh, you know, heck, it's, uh, one good thing about getting older. It sure is a lot easier to shoot your age and that part is getting easier and I'll be 80 next year and if I could just walk up one set of tees more I'm already up there pretty far. I'm thinking about putting a skirt on the, but the next time you head back to Augusta to play and you have trouble rounding out your force and you need to remember this phone number, the one that I've called you on today. So, well, I appreciate you saying that. I don't think that would ever happen, but if it does, I got your number, hey, a man can hope, right? I can hold onto a little bit of hope. I'm a Lions fan. I got to hold on to a little bit of hope. Although your, your line's been better this year than I've been in a while and I'm happy for that. Yeah, we're getting there slowly, slowly but surely we hope at least that things are heading in the right direction and I'm sure you're now, you're probably now a Michigan fan that they're in the playoff. I went there. My son's name is Bo for goodness sakes. I'm not a, I'm not a Johnny come lately, Michigan guy. I didn't know you. I didn't know your Michigan grad. Well, you got to be very proud of what's going on there that I am. It's, it's, it's very fun to see any time we can make Ohio State fans cry. Um In fact, I was with a man, I was with Jack and Barbara Nicklaus at an event this last summer and, you know, there's no sweeter lady on the planet than Mrs Nicholas. And I went up and I just said Mrs Nicholas, on behalf of, of all Wolverines, we welcome you to our state. And, and just so, you know, the two of you are really the only Buckeyes welcome in our state. And she, she chuckled a little bit and she said, well, it'll be fun to meet you folks in November. And I, I only wish that I had been able to speak to her since then. But yeah. Well, well, Butch, thanks so much and hopefully if things go well on my end, perhaps I'll get to see you in April and Augusta and give you, give you a hug in person, man. It's good to hear you. And I look forward to that. And as you know, I'm a big fan of yours. You and I met at a saloon many years ago. I'm a fan of everything you do. I know you're passionate love for golf is really appreciating the state of Michigan. And I'm always happy when you check in with me and want me on, you know, you can call me anytime you want, buddy. Thank you, Butch. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Let's have a great 23.