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Hello and welcome to Concrete Talks. I'm the executive director at Asen School of Construction Business. And I have with me today Mr Abu Nathan, who is an expert in costing, who is an expert in Q S and moreover, a passionate civil engineer and a trainer for a lot of engineers in this industry. He has been a part of this industry for almost a decade now. He started his career with T and then went into Maldives uh as a project engineer, then came into cost management, you know, deeds went into JL India and now again, a senior manager at Deeds with this kind of a history and this kind of an experience. He brings nothing less than an amazing track record of knowledge and experience towards the field of costing the field of Q S to this industry. I'm very, very grateful for Mr to be here. So, and we welcome and uh first of all, how are you doing? Yeah, thanks. Thanks uh as school as well. So I'm doing good. Uh Thanks for the introduction. Uh I'm doing great and uh I think it's exciting. Well, let's speak about the topic. All right. So you have been into cost management uh for a long time or a Q S, let's say, how do you understand it or what do you say is the most important understanding of Q S R cost management? OK. So it's a very uh interesting question. The understanding about Q S and cost management is like from my perspective, I see it is a profession where a lot of creative creativity or visualization is required because it's not so easy to see a building in a paper. And imagine how a building is going to come and what sort of technical characteristics and configurations that the building would probably have and what sort of specification that the building would bring into it and how much it's going to cost to the client and investors and what sort of the impression it is going to make in the environment as well. So it, it looks, it sounds very simple when we say this, but it's not really as simple as we speak because we need a lot of skills. We need a lot of creative abilities, we need a lot of skills to decode drawings and understand project related specifications, to do something in a, in a Q S and management profession. So that's what I see about it. So it's a profession which I see where a lot of creativity and visualization is, is mostly adequate. That's great. Now, I'll ask you a very silly question. There's a myth that estimation or Q S or cost is a boring profile amongst fresh engineers. They would rather be inside because it's fun. There is a lot of activities going on. You can shout at labors all the swear words that you want to shout, you can do it but you can't in estimation or gas. So, would you break that myths or do you agree with it? No, I would uh I would break that myth. Why? Because uh the construction is itself not a boring industry, first of all, because there are the ground related challenges and uh you need a lot of patience. Sometimes you need a lot of acceptance. You need a lot of uh things which goes beyond your control though. You might have planned a lot of uh things to happen in a certain way, but still it would certainly not happen in the way what you have thought or planned of. So these are the, these are the, I would say these are something which will, which is part and parcel of every project in construction industry since cost management and Q S is also part of the construction industry. I believe like this is not a boring job because there are so much of excellent uninteresting topics, projects, skill sets, what we can develop, learn and progress in this. But I would rather say like the way it was communicated or the way it was portrayed uh might be slightly undervalued, I would say probably the because the actual project works, what we do is not carry forward to many of the people who are entering into the industry, many of the candidates of fresh engineers think about the industry. So maybe that's because of uh because of these reasons, what I pointed out, maybe, maybe thought as an industry which is very boring. But I feel like I spent around 8 to 9 years in this industry. I don't, I am not bored as of now. And every project there are challenges. In fact, I would say this is the most challenging industry in the entire construction market. Why? Because here we are dealing with the cost, we are dealing with the price, we specifications of materials. This defines the entire projects uh health and this defines the entire projects. Health in terms of not just to the investors, health for the occupiers as well. So this is more interesting, I would say and I would definitely want to break that point. It's not a boring industry that's good to know you are your defense has won the case, my Lord. Uh So I have a very simple question. So the term estimation Q S cost management has always been put together uh maybe in different stages of careers. So for an engineer or a graduate, they are not so much aware of cost management as much as they are aware of estimation, slightly experienced candidates which are 12 years experienced, they are mostly hearing Q S than estimation or cost management. And people who have more than five years experience, they hear a lot of cost management compared to Q S and estimation. So would you say they are related if they are or they are not? Can you just elaborate more on that? Ok. So first of all, I would like to uh let you know what is cost management and from that, I would like to take it further. So basically cost management is not a myth. It's not something which is which requires a specialized skill set. You need to do so many things and you need to learn so many steps and come out. No, it's not like that. Why? Because I'll put it in this way, which will be more relatable to everyone. See, I honestly believe everybody is a cost manager by themselves, right? Because say we live in India, most of us where the culture, what we follow here is not so westernized and we have a limited expenses sometimes like our parents or when we are as a family, we will have a limited budget for us. So the budget is set for us and we will somehow try to make our living, we will try to cut down the expenses where we can, we will bring value engineering solutions by choosing some other can start up. Say, for example, if you wanted to buy a mobile phone, if you have a budget given instead of choosing an iphone, you would probably go for a Motorola, you would probably go for another brand which will reduce your cost. But still, it will give the same configuration, it will not affect the result. So these are con value engineering, right? So this is what we do in a we do for a project we do with the client we do in the industry also. So since as I've told the industry cost management is something which is there part and parcel of our life states. But the thing is like we have not thought about it as an industry, but this is what we used to do in a project. So I honestly believe that everyone is a cost manager because we live with a budget, we try to manage that particular month's expenses within that given budget. So having said that in a project, what we do is also similar to this like we used to do there are estimations at different stages which will happen during different stages. So the estimation, the term estimation is itself has evolved over a period of time. Say like if we have taken the history maybe around 100 years, the term estimation was different when there are so many literature institutions who have who have tried to evolve this add value to this. It has come to a different stage in every construction project. We used to have estimation at different stages. Uh So I would say that this is something which is very much understandable, which is very much easy. Maybe if we understand the essence of it and there is also something which is, which has got a lot of scope in it. I think I have answered to that. And so now you told everyone is a cost manager because we live in a budget. Yes, a lot of people would now be relating to it. A lot of people would have felt sad about it that you know, accepting the fact that they live under a budget. But that's the reality. Yeah, majority of us are middle class and that's true. Everyone is a cost manager in themselves. Now, the next question would be how to make sure we're accurate. So the context of what I'm trying to ask is in estimation or cost accuracy is at the highest priority, small detailing you miss you are missing out on a lot of money and of the debt. So how do you make sure that there is accurate results when it comes to estimation of costing? Because a lot of it has to do with mathematics and calculations and rates. So how do you, you know, make sure the accuracy is at the highest priority? Ok. So in the industry, accuracy has always been a problem, but I would say with the right approach, having a right methodology in place, taking place or having a right practice and a system in place accuracy can be met. For example, I would like to bring a few examples like how to maintain accuracy as a cost manager. For example, uh if, if we are working on Excel, it's very simple. Like we need to make sure I'm just giving you basic examples for easy understanding. If we are working in an Excel Excel sheet, it's very simple to make sure before publishing that all the links are perfectly linked, correct, so that my backups for any particular package should not be linked with another package so that the cost might fluctuate or might get missed and the specifications. What I'm understanding is something similar in case if my as I said, we do estimation in different stages. So in a particular stage of estimation, if we don't have so much of details about the project, we need to make sure about what sort of assumptions we are making, what sort of exclusions we are making. And I would honestly, as a as an individual cost manager, I would honestly recommend anyone to pay a lot of attention to assumptions and exclusions because this is where the numbers will hugely fluctuate. And you have to be very transparent with your clients in terms of putting all this information to them, like what this cost plan includes and what this excludes. And if it includes of what category of materials, because certainly speaking like the cost of putting a time flooring is not good, the cost of putting a model flooring for it and you have to be very fair with the client like this is the assumption what they are made and on what basis, maybe with reference to your benchmarks or with reference to your, with your organization's previous databases or maybe with your own experience when, when there are no details available, it's absolutely OK. But as I said, the accuracy is something which is, which can be maintained by having proper quality check before issuing. In terms of, as I said, in terms of excels or links or in terms of validating the prices, how accumulate my prices with reference to the current market or if I'm inspired by any prices which are slightly older in terms of time than how that inflation or escalation price escalation is captured. So doing this checklist kind of thing before issuance would probably give enough confidence to the cost managers and and will obviously build the reputation of the brand what you're holding as well. Now, I think the process takes a huge part, you know, in increasing the accuracy. Now coming to the process itself, a lot of fresh civil engineers would like to know initially in their career, what are the most common mistakes that they do? An estimation which they shouldn't be doing so when they come, they don't know, right, like a lot of them would not have mentors and that is something that we talk, a lack of mentorship is a problem. But apart from that estimation, like you said, is a lot about detailing and getting the process right and initial because they are not aware of the process, there is a chance that they do make the same mistakes which a 10 year experienced would have done 10 years back. So what are the common mistakes while doing estimation or while acting as a initially? They don't be a cost manager but at least estimation. OK. So I will be more practical on this because I have handled a good number of printed engineers during my experience, the most important mistake. What the friend and Q S or a pressure group enters into the industry does is they do not pay attention to the numbers. What they are. For example, when we see a project in terms of square feet, the numbers are gross equal to four digits, not more than that. But whereas if you see a project in terms of a mode, it might be 300 grows 400 grow. So I would suggest like people who are entering into the industry, please don't get scared of these numbers because uh you see some some grow values for the first time in your life. What they will do is they will simply believe like, OK, I have done something wrong. How how can I uh get a project which is 300 it grows because for them it's a first project, it's very uh their their fear is very genuine. The thing is what they permanently do is they will try to adjust something within their own without having a consultation with their management or their or their senior managers who could probably have uh helped them. And the second mistake, what they do is they do not pay close attention to the project configuration and uh they do not pay attention to the company's existing databases. So probably if a candidate who is coming into the job market, if he is paying close attention to the number of projects, the particular company has done and what are the rate per square rates or the amount of the projects which has ended up? And what are the configuration of the project and how it is slightly vary? You don't want to do a phd research that it's a basic common sense to put it in a checklist or a matics in an excellency, how the price is varying in terms of time, in terms of location, in terms of project configuration. Because when I say project configuration, it's simple. It's simple. The cost of doing a project, having a basement and not having a basement is not equal. So this will help you to understand the difference between the cost per square with an amount of a project, having a basement and not having a basement. And this you can easily gain having a proper study of your industries or your company's own database, having regular sessions, having regular questions to interact with your senior managers and get inputs from them. Because as a fresh, as a fresh engineers, as someone who is entering new to the market, they always have the privilege of asking questions, even if it is silly. And the added advantage of that is companies and serial managers will pay attention to you and answer it and try to answer it as much as they can. Why? Because they wanted you to take responsibility of a project in the coming weeks or months so that they will pay proper attention to you, they will try to clear your doubts. But the problem here is how often we ask doubts to them? Uh No. OK, in terms of asking doubts, right? Of course, once you are experienced, that is something that you expect fresh graduates to ask. Because when you are experienced, you think, OK, if they ask questions, we are going to give them answers. But do you think that there is a preconceived notion in the fresh engineers that if we ask a stupid question, they will not respect us or is there, is it something to do with the work culture or is it something to do with being scared of the seniors? Because a lot of engineers say I'm experienced, you are experienced. We know that a lot of engineers are slightly scared uh because they feel like if we ask a stupid question, they will think of us in a stupid way. A of course, that is not the case, but there are forms which has made it a common. Again, I would use the word myth on the same. So, do you, what do you think of that? Like for fresh engineers who think like that? Ok. First of all, it's not the firms who made the myth. It's about the people in the firms or some senior level managers in the forms the world, world journalists, yeah, or see what concern also varies from team to team. So it may be the probably the team or the team would have created the myth, not the organization. And yes, the preconceived myth with students is existing part with fresh engineers is existing. Sometimes when we interact with students, they used to tell like, sir, what if I ask a silly question when they fired me from the job? So I was like, no, that is why they have a probation period for you and you can make use of a probation period as much as you can to clear all your doubts and see frankly speaking, when any interview happens for a fresh engineer, everybody knows they are new to the industry. So it's practically it doesn't make sense if a company who hires you knowing you are a fresher and trying to fire you because it doesn't know anything. So students can be confident about that. You can make, they can make use of their probation period very effectively to learn things. And any organization I would believe honestly, like they wanted people, they wanted to ever let people who are making use of the potential, what the organization is putting across to them, who are vocal, to ask doubts, who are interested to learn things. Maybe these are all the key expectations these days. Most of the uh good firms and good teams are having, uh who are hiring pressures. So having said that yes, the myth is there, I think fresh engineers don't want to bother about that because the probation is still there and they make use of the time as doubts and nobody is going to throw you out of the job. Since you have asked some silly questions, I think that is going to comfort a lot of engineers. I hope no, that is all huge debate which has been going on in the construction field itself, which is what we learn in civil engineering is not what we do in the industry. And that has been proved right every year with every batch, no matter which college they are from, the Corporates are doing something which the academics is not able to catch up, which has resulted in a lot of training institutes or at tech firms coming in closing that kind of a gap. Same thing has gone with estimation as well. So as engineers, we have also learned estimation in our college, we have had a same I think if we go across India, majority of the colleges will have the same two B H K plan which the third year civil engineer or 1/4 year civil engineer will have to estimate, take out the quantities and maybe do a very amateur casual rate analysis on that. No, I would concise the question to just estimation. How much is the difference between what we have studied in college in terms of estimation versus what actually happens in the construction industry? OK. Uh When it comes to estimation, yes, if you ask me whether the basics are available in the college, I would say yes, because even in the industry, we still follow the long wall short one method, centerline method which are on there in the text. And you have also told an example like still they will have a two B K plan in the books which we used to do medical takeoffs, et cetera on we do an estimation plan for that. So the concept of estimation doesn't vary from project to project. The concept of estimation is still safe. So if uh given any line plan, uh given any key project information, we need to give, come up with a uh costing for that. Uh As I said, uh having various considerations taken in and taken out. Uh So I would say the concept or the basics which is required for the estimation uh industry or the cos management industry is still there in the textbooks. But uh maybe it could have been effectively taught, having practical and more updated examples. So I feel like whenever I talk to students, the term two BK is still very boring for the students. Why? Because they're used to do that and they don't know what is a CO BK. Honestly speaking, many pre engineers doesn't know what is the meaning of B A in there in the term. So when we say it is a commercial project and we say like Amazon or flip card is going to be simple example, when we interact with students, we say like I'm going to design a project for Amazon of seven lax square feet. They are more excited because they know Amazon and the seven lax square feet, they are feeling so much proud of psychological impact, which is getting created to them. As I said, the logic for a two P H K is as same as doing the seven LA square project I O to whom it is going to be leased out, correct? OK. But the way it is being thought could have been in a better way, that's where I honestly believe adding something to that. Like we also practice a lot of industry standards when it comes to the job market, which is slightly amazing in the economics. I would say we still speak about a lot of Indian standard codes. I think in the entire 70 training course we use is 456 16 60 is 814. Only these three codes we used to do and there are a lot of codes available. There is a full set of, is 100 available. Uh is one and it speaks about your mode of measurements for various items. It starts with F two works. It has measurements for plaster, sheet steel items, etcetera, aluminum sheets, corrugated sheets. All these items are available. Maybe those kind of codes can be, can be given some awareness about these kind of things to the students which will really help them out. Because when you come to the field, there is a standard which which an industry expects from you as a professional civil engineer. And there's nothing wrong even if a company expects that from a fresh engineer. So I suggest like having the basics from the textbook. It's good right now. Even current students who are hearing this can able to Google up all these details and they can have a handbook of is 200 which will eventually help them or ease them in the process of getting a job and ease the pressure in terms of learning things in their during their probation period. So these are the things and yeah, there are basics which are there, there are industry standards which are not there, which can be the development of technology these days, which can be studied at not by the students even before coming into the industry. Now, of course, we address the gap that has been there because of academics or because of whatever reasons. I mean, that's another different podcast in itself. Yes. Uh but what I would like to know is see, like I told you, I've always been here for a decade, almost a decade, let's say from the time you started till now, what has been the change in the industry in your field? Uh Maybe in terms of, you know, uh companies coming into the market, maybe in terms of awareness, maybe in terms of technology, whatever it might be, what has been the change that you have seen in the last eight years, seven years. OK. In the last 27 years, the entire construction industry itself has gone through a lot of drastic changes I would believe because I have started my career as a site engineer where, you know, getting R and C contract is itself very tough. But right now, it's not that I think everybody has got awareness about R MC, what is R MC, how to do that and all uh when it comes to the uh cost management part, I would say like earlier when I was a site engineer, he doesn't have a process to tell us or maybe we were least uh we were getting least awareness about what is the process to do at change management because I was working on an individual house and an apartment project paraly during the first and after two years of my career. So where if some client comes and tells us a change, like we would have bought a tile, the client might not be interested to go with the time they wanted to go with a granite or marble and they had no idea how to take anything forward from that. Correct, whether we need to go and tell this to our management or whether we need to go with the client and tell us that there is going to be a cost impact, correct or so when I go with the management, the management immediately ask me like, what is going to be the cost impact? And I have no idea what, what cost of a tile is, what cost of a marble was. But right now, it is not like that. We have got a a process in place in the general industry because companies have gained experience in the 78 years and maybe their business prospect also has got fluctuated because of these things, not at, at the front end. And I believe honestly, like any company who is into this has got a set up, they've got a change management process. And as I said, there are a market opened for various other consultants who came in to add values to all the services who have taken basically offloaded this kind of pain from the developers. And they brought in a lot of value addition in terms of protocols, systems and how to keep a change in cost in control. So these sort of drastic value additions and the and the involvement of international standards uh say like there are because is speaking before 10 years, I had no idea what is international mode of measurement or what is an N R M? What is S M M, we had no idea. But right now, since we have got so much of global consultants and people who have got mobile experience and had their own startups here in the consulting firms have have tried to have tried to inject this knowledge into the market and it is working out effectively, which is a drastic change in the last 10 years, I would say so on our overall picture, the process is at least available to get these days. And there are companies who are who has got the leverage of offloading certain painful areas to them, to different consulting agencies as a service which has eventually added value in terms of keeping the right cost, keep keeping the project within the time, keeping the project within the specifications. And so that's something what I would see. And second is the involvement of technologies. Yeah, because earlier, you know, when I started to put up projects cost, it was very simple. We used to put it on a notebook and not speaking about something before freedom after just 10 years before, OK, the market was that less dependent on technologies. We were used to do a site book mook, which is a physical book at site. We used to write on that. And when we do government projects, the A E our assistant engineer executive has to sign on it. Correct. So based on that site, we used to take it forward to the office and then it will take two days for the office people to check the entire measurements and then we need to put it for the payment process. We process and then the government executive will take a week. The process becomes was very long then get a payment. It takes more than 60 to 90 days that still we won't get paid. But right now, the process is so much brought into the timeline by using technologies because you know, speaking about current trend, you know, we can we have the capability to connect different stakeholders under a zoom call. And we have got an auto drawing that we are simply telling them there are models which 10 which is executed, which is not executed also. So we were simply able to tell them, tell the entire stakeholders using in a single call. Like this is the progress of the project. This is the area which has been built, this is the area which has been built in the built area. This is the area where the work in progress is there. This is the methodology I have adopted. So that entire stakeholders has got awareness of my building methodology in a call. So this kind of sort of effort or this sort of technological advantage was not that which is, which is very good to see and this is saving a lot of time cost, which is, which is very important for the industry. That's great. I think you mentioned two names over there. I would suggest you to just tell slightly a bit more about it for people who don't know about it, which is basically an R and S. OK. So can you just elaborate what it is and how it is useful in this industry? OK. So SM SM is a standard method of measurement and NRM is new rule of measurement. So NRM has got two versions of it. NRM one and NRM two. So basically like how we, I'll just give a basic idea about what it is because it still takes a call to about both. So basically the organizations like like R and other global organizations who were facing difficulties in terms of controlling a project where the issues are happening in terms of putting different, different packages and they were not able to cap everything after a budget or sometimes when it comes to when it comes to subcontractor package, we were having a difficulty because in the olden days, the structure of a of a cost plan or a cost report was something minimalistic. It was not, was say if it is a substructure. I may not able to pick up the quantity of a foundation in that substructure because everything will be capped, whichever is coming under the ground will be capped under substructure. But right now, it is not like that. If we pick for a substi there is a particular category available and under substi I can still categorize that into different foundations like specialist foundations, standard foundations, lower floor constructions, retaining one construction because usually, you know, people in the market can be able to let very much the piling and other specialist foundations will not be done by the contractor who is going to do a general contracting cur. So it was it was difficult then to bifurcate this package and put it under a cost and it was very difficult to mold everything into a project's cost report. But right now, it is eased out having the advantage of because there are more breakdown exactly because there is more breakdown. And you know, as I said, giving it to a third party vendor becomes very easy, controlling the particular package cost has also become very easy because I can certainly know what is the fluctuation I am having in a project and where the fluctuation is coming from. Either it is coming from substructure in substructure, from which part of whether it is from the concrete or foundation or from wall color. So I have the freedom to go into that much detail into a cost report. And as I said, having anything broken down will give you a better visibility also. So when you are trying to put a cost plan in an NRM format, that gives me a better visibility in terms of the considerations what I'm having because here it's all like done for each and every minute packages. And this is all brought into a summary where the accuracy becomes very high, correct, correct. So this is this is the basics of the object of using these kind of global industrial standards that that's great to hear. So one thing is we spoke about the past like in the last 78 years, what is the change? Uh my next uh understanding would be, what is the future? So what are you, you know, expecting your field to look like in the next 56 years? Predicting, let's say, OK, so it's a simple, we have spoken about the 10 years change what we have right from I mentioned about the book kind of measurements to how we are doing it in the using Autocad and other advantage technological tools as of now. So in future, what I would see is like the manual quantity tao might slow down or reduce uh because uh the use of computers are very high in the industry also it is increasing rapidly even to the very front and side level also. So I think the use of tools, measuring tools like like caustics because we are all speaking about beam these days when it comes to beam, we need a software tool which processes which processes beam data from where we are able to do the quantity take offs. Because the traditional practice in India as of now is to get a auto drawing. And then we used to do a take off on an Excel family. In the future. I would say that would slowly get vanished and we will have a big model at different stages where the art of examining and destination. Exactly. So the the situation becomes very meaningful and accuracy will become more in terms of doing it with B model and cost. And yes, you know, preparing a BQ and the time which we are going to save by doing something on a digital platform, that manual thing is going to be a key role. Uh Since we have, we were able to do something in a shorter period of time, we will get more projects also. So in that perspective also, uh for the future, I would say like as I said, the manual quantity takeoff will get slowly reduced. And there are multiple ways of bringing, uh I would say multiple ways of bringing cost information into a digital format. Say like we wanted to look for a solution where we can able to uh where we can able to estimate a project cost in a shorter period of time. It should not take weeks as we are doing now. So we want to bring up solutions to do that in maybe in a few hours or with the help of a few click clicks. So that sort of database integration benchmark preparation has to be looked forward. I think there are a good number of people who are looking forward to develop these kind of tools and yeah, mostly to cut it short. I would like to simply say the involvement of software in the construction industry is where the future is going to lie for the next 10 years. Be it be cost or any other digital digital products? What we are speaking, the integration or the or the kind of relationship what we have as the construction industry with software industry is little less which is going to take this industry into a lead for the next 10 years. That's great to hear. So uh there are basically from what I know from project management, there are basically 10 knowledge areas of project management. One being the integration management, like what you're told is very important. Similarly, we have procurement and all other things. One of that is cost management does well. So what we have seen in the last three or four years is there is a huge trend in the civil engineers to get into project management side. So for all those people who are into project management, we know that under at least theoretically speaking, cost management comes under the concept or the umbrella of project management. So how would you relate uh cost management to those people who are interested in project management but not aware of cost management? Ok. So uh say cost management is something uh uh which people understands us uh as a industry which which works only with the cost, it's not like that. Uh So we have worked on projects. I have worked on projects. We have, we have written tender documents. We have taken, we have suggested procurement routes to client. We have handled the procurement process. We have sat long meetings, we have connected with vendors in terms of negotiating, negotiating. There are a lot of negotiation tactics strategies we used to do and then, and then you know the statutory requirements when it comes to when it comes to your bank guarantees, right? From bank guarantees, insurance, your difficult liability, period. What sort of relationship we need to develop with a vendor and a client? So all this kind of thought process will happen uh from a cost manager table more. So uh I think that is something which is uh very less spoken about this industry because mostly people think like cost management is something. Well, we will go and we'll do an estimation, we'll do some rate and that's it. Yeah, exactly. So that's how people think about it, but it's not like that. There is also uh uh contract uh contract manager lawyer who can also be a cost manager. Eventually. Uh there are also roles for procurement specialist, uh commercial managers and who can also be a cost manage, cost manager inter and the reason I'm touching all this is this uh in this industry, the procurement, the commercials and uh I would say the contracts is also broadly believed to be something part of the project management. So someone who is so much aspire about project management still wants to know about what are the cost management avenues which I can learn. These are all cost management avenues which you have a cost management background. Still you can be as a project manager and you can be able to do that. So this is like I would always say like the cost in project management is like a husband and wife relationship because the three triangles we speak in in engineering is cost quality and t correct. So I find no difference between time and cost because a cost management takes care of cost, a project manager takes care of time and quality. So even 20 cost managers also take care of quality way because we cannot set if the specification is not right. So the triangle is fulfilled only when a project and cost manager works together, correct? So anyone who is aspiring to be a project manager has to have a basic understanding about a cost management profile. Or anyone who is having out who driving career in cost management needs to have a proper understanding about how project management works only then the triangle becomes complete. Correct. Yeah. So coming to this one word that we have been speaking for a long time, which is the management? How do you see or how do you see the importance of management for any civil engineer? The the reason why I ask you this question is because civil engineers are not taught even one nos of management in their curriculum, at least in the syllabus for that. A lot of universities started having degrees in construction technology management. OK. However, that has not been a huge success in multiple avenues in universities. But if you look at the long term sustainability of an engineer in the industry, they have to learn management, maybe not in terms of the textbook management, but at least managing people and managing time and cost. Now these three have become very important. Of course, quality is something that is like you said part of the triangle. But quality there are very huge specialists for that nowadays. But costing in time, even though there are specialists, it is like a mandatory thing for everyone to understand. So when we talk about management, managing work is one under which the I aim cost politics. But there is another huge plethora of management which is managing people and that has become a huge challenge also and a huge opportunity for growth. So how would you see the importance of management for civil engineers? Yeah. It's, it's like for civil engineers, I would always say with my shoulders also like management is very important. Why? Because see this is the, you also talk about the people management. So this is as you know, like the second largest employment generated in India, carbon employment generated industry in India. So compared to that, we can imagine like how much or how many number of people are involved in this industry? Be it right? From uh the labor's level or right from a top skin, the leadership management level uh who is at a very senior most position in any organization. So this industry has all the sort of people who has got uh who has got a basic degree or not even a basic degree and people who has got a very well known degree who are all put into the same industry. So people management is something which is very, very important being a civil engineer because uh here, wherever we go, a lot of people involvement is there. As I said, we cannot do a project without a cost manager, not cooperating with a project manager, not cooperating with a quality manager, all three of them has to cooperate. One, then the project is going to be an effective success. So this is the people management and the importance of it when it comes to management. As I said, why it is very much important in pen industries, I as a as an individual, civil engineer, I always believe the requirement of management comes once there is a risk noted anywhere correct. And this construction industry is something where risk cannot be predicted with the use of it cannot be predicted as easily as we could do or in other industry. Why? Because in other industries, we have an advantage. If the instruction is right, the result is going to be right. But in this construction industry, we have a disadvantage even though the instruction is right, we cannot assume the result is going to be right? Why? Because so many people are involved, it's not like a device or a calculator, we have to work with people, correct. So there are a lot of psychology involved in that. So having so much of people is itself a risk and having the ground reality because sometimes when we do project, we might have planned to do an excavation with, with the, you know, minimum rock blasting. But you know, when we open the grounds, we will be able to understand the impact or the cost or the time which is required to blast. The rock is way more than what we thought on papers in a pre contact station. So now it's a huge risk and how we are going to manage the particular risk of excavating without damaging the environment. Still, the cost is capped, the time is capped and the resources are also capped. And I think I have created a plot here now, which conveys uh what sort of risk we have here and how it can be managed, correct? So this is a simple activity which I'm telling you. But this is Revo with suppose if we take a BQ, hardly any average BQ will have around, you know, 200 to 300 lines, that means 200 to 300 items. So every item will, it has its own risk. Some might be of interior, some might be related to groundwork, some might be related to concrete etc. So management is something which eventually becomes a skill set which is very much required for a civil engineer where a lot of uncertainty is involved. A lot of risk is involved. Eventually managing managing skills is very much required. So I think I have. Yeah. Yeah. So I would like to add to that also, like you said, a lot of uncertainties, a lot of external factors of stakeholders, people, psychology and of course, egos, yes, there is one more thing that you know, comes to construction, which is not so much in other industries and we are all scared as contractors when it comes, which is the change orders. Yes, and it happens on a daily basis. Yes. So the costing changes, the schedule changes, the procurement changes, everything changes when the change order comes. And that is something that of course, like you said, is some thing that can be solved through our understanding of management again because when change order comes, of course, costs time and all those things changes. But more than that, the psychology of the people involved also changes. Some people get frustrated, someone get irritated, some are happy, some are looking profitable, some are looking at a loss. So I would totally agree that, you know, the management becomes a huge thing to sustain in this industry. Yes, of course, a civil engineering degree will give you a degree, it will give you the basic knowledge. Now, now that we've talked about management, right? So I would like to know uh one more thing about the lockdown because a lot of civil engineers, there is a small core, you know, civil engineers that I speak to who are very passionate. But what you've observed in the last 67 years is the intake of civil engineers has dropped, the output of civil engineers has dropped even further because of the concepts like data analytics or business analytics, data science. It doing well where we see people in metro cities where they join civil engineering, but four years down the line, they are in accenture or A T CS. And when we talk to the seventh semester, eight semester students, they tell they are giving me four lakh packets. So I'd rather go there. So as someone who has been in contact with a lot of civil engineers and as a corporate uh what are the things that we as an industry should make? Sure that the rules are actually passionate in civil or construction, stay in construction. So it's a, it's a very tough question to answer because like uh to make sure, like I would say the proper awareness about this industry has to be conveyed by professionals who are there in the industry. Because when we interact with students, still, people who have completed four years of their graduation as a civil engineer and they come out, they still believe like this is an industry where I need to put my shoes one in a concrete one, then I'll be, I'll be getting an avenue to open or I'll be getting a monthly salary. So basically that is the assumption on my people have. So as an industry, as an industry of professionals, I think we need to break that we need to put across a lot of avenues which are open, which are job uh which are very friendly to the fresh engineers. For example, uh one example I would like to pick here is when I was interacting with a student who has, who has come out of a job which we hardly bought for him. And then like the reason he said this is like he is not able to digest a fact within himself. Like his friend who has got graduated from a different course is getting a well paid job. He's into some other it industry who has bought a car very recently. And his fascinated lifestyle was very inspiring for this young man. And then he was not convinced with the fact, with a fact, like I'm not able to make it within the same time as how he has made it. So this is where I think we need to be responsible as a as an industry of professionals, we need to be responsible, like giving them hope about what this industry is, what this industry's capability is because every industry will have its own growth graph and some may start very quickly, but some may start very late. Yeah, so there is a difference between this word continuous and continual. Some industries are continuing where you need to stay on the step for some time and only then you are able to see a peak correct. Some industries are continuous where the where the graph is very slanting. So there will be a continuous progress seen over over a period of time. So this construction industry is something which is where you can get a continual process because as I said, we as you also said, we don't learn the management principles in engineering because all the four years goes only in learning the technical ti correct. So when it comes to management, we need to come out and learn here. So that takes a time and this sort of awareness has to be communicated to the engineers who are coming, who are coming into the industry. And yes, the news which is available inside the construction industry. So for example, we can we are talking about cost management. I don't know how many civil engineers who are coming out of the industry knows there is a profile available to cost management and most of the civil engineers speak, they wanted to have a white collar job. Yes, you can get a white collar job in cost management. You can get a white collar job in project management and contracts management. But who speaks about all this? That that becomes a question. And I think that is what we mostly needed to do. And you know, pay is always something has been a myth in the industry. Like if you are a civil engineer, you'll always be getting less paid. No, it is not like that. It is there for a period of time we can experience. So this sort of awareness, I honestly believe as a industry professionals, we need to carry forward to the engineers who are entering into the market. That's exactly what I agree with because in civil engineering, what do I do understand? Or in construction? I would not say civil engineering in construction, we have to play the long game, we have to wait and the fruits will be there because like you said, there is, there are profiles, there are positions where the pay is amazingly equivalent to let's say their counterpart in the it sector. It's just that the end 33 years, two years that is where there is a disparity between so engineers and it, I think we need to pass out that wave and pass that phase. Yes. And then we will match that. Yes. But the thing is very few people stick to it because they, like you said, they look at their friends buying cars, putting up a down payment on a house and they feel like, you know what, I can't do it so that I'm truly agreeing with as well. Now because of that gap that we spoke about uh you know, schools like us have come into picture as well where we talk about management, like you told, there is no awareness. So what I do uh tell or what we do portray as as saying is we talk about pros. When we talk about profiles, it's straight up from cost management. Q valuation, marketing sales because sales marketing, these are all very undervalued profiles because the moment we hear sales, there is always a myth with each profile. Yes. The moment we hear sales, it's always the salesman coming and drinking the toy. Yes, but sales is a huge profile in itself estimation. It's always looked as the basic entry level profile, but there are huge heads of estimation who are earning lacks together. So when we have those myths which has come from long number of generations, of course, as Corporates and professionals even we have to wait it out maybe. And uh uh so coming to the end of podcast or this episode, I would say I would like to know like you, I've always told you what we do and what does and what are your thoughts or what are your opinions on the gap that we are trying to fill for the industry? Ok. Uh Principally, I have always believed one thing will uh will, will be working out as an individual or as a professional also, uh which is like uh there is a saying like unless and until you stand on someone's shoe, you cannot understand what the other person is going through. So I always believe something on the role play. Uh kind of uh why? Because I that makes you to stand on someone else's shoe, at least for a shorter period of time where you're thinking or your own method of thinking as an individual will be brokered, correct? So that's exactly is the for the industry because when I go and sit as a project manager or as a cost manager or as a civil engineer per se, we represent an organization and we are facing a client. OK. So I cannot show my individual characters there to the client because there is a project which is being discussed there. And I'm representing an organization and I'm interested in someone who is, who is having a requirement. So in that case, my individual character has to be put outside and the requirement will he is seeking has to be met. So that is something which is I truly relate with this role play model. Because if I was there in the scenario, I have to be on my organization's business shoes and understand the client requirement. And I have to give him a solution from the organization's point of view. So there is nothing of me which is involved there so that they are putting a mask. Exactly. So we are putting a mask and we are trying to solve the problem which is existing, they're using our professional skills, which we have developed. So this is something I would honestly say I like with the model, what Asen is having. And this truly bridges the gap in the industry because at a point of time, uh it becomes meaningless what we study how we study unless and until we give a solution to someone who is standing in front of us. So if I'm a doctor, and if I doesn't know what I have to, what prescription I have to give if somebody comes and sits having a fever as a complaint, and if I'm a doctor, what is the point of being a doctor without knowing the prescription? Right. So that is exactly what we need to do. And I think the model, the business or the ideology or the way of approach what does and does is quite close to that, putting someone else or making them to lose their individual characters. And putting them on an industrial shoes, helps the industry as well, helps the candidates as well. And this is where a proper learning can be brought in. So I'm totally in agree with that principle as an individual. So I, I think that's something which really bridges the gap between the college and the industry so that, you know, people, when, when they come and sit there at any level position, they will understand the roles and responsibilities of the position only if they were able to sit in that shoes. Right. So that's, that's, that's great. I mean, I agree for it because that's what we envisioned, you know, while we planned how we have to teach or how we have to make students learn what a concept. So that's been great. It's been almost an hour where we spoke about careers, cost management, estimation. A lot of support and guidance to fresh engineers, a lot of myths broken and a lot of promise to look forward to. And with that, I would like to thank you Anbu for being a part of this podcast. Looking forward to collaborating with you on multiple levels where we both have the same vision which is solve the problems of fresh engineers and eventually those problems of Corporates as well because both are the same problems, quality and that is something that we as educators or as industry have to come together and solve it to make it sustainable for the longer run. So thank you for being a part of this podcast and uh looking forward to see your growth and see your involvement in solving a lot of other problems as well. So, thank you so much. Thank you n so it's been an exciting one, not where a lot of thought process was happened in a productive way. I would say, in fact, wherever concrete is there, we as society engineers, we believe like pouring a concrete is like uh is like finishing a marriage for us because there are so much of para activities right here. So you have also titled this as a Concrete Conversations. And I think uh to, to Make Justice To the name, we have also spoke about a lot of other avenues of UN section. I'm happy having uh myself here. You know, thank you ninth. Thanks Lord Nzo. Thank you everyone for listening. We'll be coming up with multiple other episodes with multiple other professionals and a lot of other insights about the construction industry. Thank you, everyone.