Keeping Yourself in Check with The Voice Deck and Nic Redman

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Hi there and welcome to Vox Talk, your weekly review from the world of voiceover. I'm your host Stephanie Ciccarelli from Voices. Are you looking for a fresh source of inspiration in your studio? How about some gentle reminders for things that you know you should be doing, like a set of vocal warmups to get you through? For instance, joining me today is Nic Redman. She's a voice artist coach, creator of the Voice Deck. She has a book coming out soon. We'll talk about that later too. But you might also remember hearing Nic in a previous episode that we had with Leah Marks. So Nic, welcome back to the show.

Nic Redman:

Thanks for having me. I'm gonna be coming a regular, what will I be talking about next time.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

I don't know. We'll have to see. But I'm just so happy that you're here. Come back to talk about the voice deck, which is an amazing product that I've been taking a look at. I know it's been helpful to a lot of people. Yeah. And so for those of us who are not in the know Nic, what is the voice deck and why did you create it?

Nic Redman:

Right. So, um, it's a voice, a card deck with vocal warmups in it. That in essence is what it is. And it grew out of a sort of ridiculous 3:00 AM insomnia moment, similar to the voice of a career planner, I'm not gonna lie. Um, where, you know, I I, I get a bit of business coaching and I'm a few business groups and I'd seen people doing affirmation decks and writing prompt decks and, you know, all kinds of card decks for stuff. And I was like, there's gotta be a vocal warmup card deck that seems like a really good idea. Like, shuffle it up, pick a few things, change it up every day. And there wasn't anything out there like it. So I was like, well, I'm gonna do it then I'm gonna do it . And I thought it would be this really simple, easy process. I stick a few tongue twisters and a few exercises on some cards and Bob's your uncle, but oh my days, I had no idea what it takes to create a product. And turns out you like, you know, I was like sampling GSM paper weight and like looking at box samples and all this, making sure the color printing was right. Meanwhile it was also trying to write the thing and, and you sort of forget how hot, well you probably have no idea how hard it is to write down a voice exercise and explain and describe what people should be doing. So it's a deck of cards separated into four sections, body, breath, sound, and speech, which is the structure I go through when I'm working on people with their speaking voice. And basically you, you take a couple of cards from each section and you piece together a warmup every day, but there's also a QR code on it. And when you scan that QR code, it takes you to my website and there's demonstration videos of everything. So if you read the card and you go, well this is very pretty, but I have no idea what you're talking about, love, then you can scan the code and go to the website and see a demo. So hopefully it's uh, it's pretty, it's the feedback I get is that it's really usable. It really, um, like you said, gives people a new lease of life, freshens up the vo, their vocal warmups every day. And also a reminder, you said it at the start and it came to me recently, I was doing a Clubhouse and someone was like, just having it on the desk reminds me to do a warmup, which makes my heart sing because that's really all I want. Is it really easy for people to do warmups.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Yes. And that's so important as we know anyone who's been trained to speak or to sing to voice act, we all know that that warming your voice up is important, but, but it's so obvious to us. We just say, oh yeah, I gotta warm up the voice. But what is it actually doing? Like why is it so important that we are warming up our voice before we use it?

Nic Redman:

Mm-hmm. I think the more I do it, and this is hilarious cause I mean I've been speaking on mic for nearly 20 years and I've been coaching on mic for nearly seven and I'm always sort of reframing and sort of reflecting on why I'm so passionate about these things. And I think ultimately it comes down to ease. And it's the idea that we warm up so we can do our job really easily, you know, we warm up so we can have an expressive, engaging, exciting, interesting, uh, emotional voice for so that your voice is basically free to respond in whatever way you need it to for the job in hand. And I think for voice overs particularly, and the way trends are going in voiceover, it's really important to not be thinking about how you sound when you record and not be aiming to hit every single letter in every single word. And it, it's not about that. And it's, it's not about perfection, it's about preparation and making sure that your, your mouth is free to shape the sounds easily so that you can sound conversational and casual and chill and interesting and not be constantly monitoring yourself. 'cause the minute you listen to yourself, the minute you aren't thinking about your message on how you're trying to affect people anymore. So that's, that's what it's for, basically.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Well, that is so true. Like, just thinking about how I, I love what you said, Nic, about getting your voice ready to do whatever it might be required for, and you, you have no idea what an audition might be that day that you could be doing. Like, well, I need to have full access to my range, my whole range, and I need to have that elasticity that comes with an instrument that is ready to go. And just like an athlete on the field, like they're doing all these different ways to warm up and prepare, and this is no different. Like your instrument is part of your body and you need to get it ready, you need to be mentally ready, but you also need to be physically ready because without warming up that voice, it's kind of like, you know, starting the car and expecting it to just go, what you might need to warm up the car a little bit. Maybe the engine needs to purr for a while. So, um, so as we're talking about this, obviously a warmup is important to ensure success, but of course we can also sabotage things like we can do dumb things. Like maybe someone's like, oh, I just did my warmup and now I've, I've stepped outside and there's this big gust of smoke and now I'm shot, you know. So like, is there anything that we can do to avoid ruining a good warmup because we've just spent time doing this and, and I'm sure there are, are people who are just like, please Nic tell me how can I save me from, you know, how can I save myself from the elements and whatever else might happen after I've done this warm up?

Nic Redman:

That's a really good question. I think, and it sort of ties in with a lot of people ask the question, should I do my warmup straight before I record or can I do it in the morning before I leave for the studio? Because sometimes you don't have the chance. So, um, I think the first thing is remembering that a warmup can happen at any point in the day. You can also have a warmup or a cool down at the end of the day, or you can have a reset where you do a few exercises mid-session. So in the event that you do step out into a car exhaust or a blizzard, you can just do a little extra something to, to come back and to reset things. Um, I think it's important to think about your environment, so don't sabotage yourself by not being hydrated or being in a really dry environment. Um, all those kinds of things. So if you know you've gotta step out into an environment that is less than useful, just which you get to the studio. And funny enough, the, one of the things I have in the book, um, is you know, how to warm up quietly

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Oh wow. Yes.

Nic Redman:

Without making any noise because you might need to do a few warmups. Well, the producers and everyone in the room is getting themselves organized. You could do a few wee stretches then and you could do a few wee shoulder rolls, a few, a few breath things. It doesn't have to be a big dramatic kind of full body crazy experience. It's great if it is, but if you get to that point where you need a little extra recap of a warmup, then you know, there's, there's lots you can do for that as well.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Awesome. So you had mentioned the deck is split up into a few different parts, kind of like Monopoly. You've got Community Chest and you've got like, so, um, just wondering here, uh, you know, there are lots of warm ups, but how many are there actually in the deck?

Nic Redman:
Um, 38 I think

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Oh wow. So lots you can

Nic Redman:
Right.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Can mix and match and play with us really great. Yeah. So could you walk us through maybe two or three of your favorite warmups and, and we'll just, yeah, we can all try with you.

Nic Redman:
Let's have a look. Shall I just pick some and see what happens?

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Hello. This is a chance card now. ,

Nic Redman:
Oh, I forgot there's a fifth. There's a fifth section, which is like tongue. There's load of tongue twisters in there as well. Yeah. Just on the end. Um, okay, so actually, okay. I think one that's pertinent when you, you know, you talked about the fact that a voice warmup is also about getting your head in the game. Is that one card is the mindful minute, um, which is really about before you start taking a minute to just check where you are, like how you're feeling, what's going on with your breath, what's going on, have you got any tension in the body, any holding, that kind of thing. Because we do change - our voices change day to day, minute to minute, hormonal cycles, stress, stress, anxiety, illness, tiredness, all these things play a part. So taking a moment before you start just to sit with a, oh this is not radio friendly because it's like sit for a moment quietly. And so maybe we won't do this one , but it's just about taking a moment to reflect on how you feel. Because then you might go, oh my tongue feels tense today. I'll make sure I get a tongue stretch in there. Or you might go, my back really hurts 'cause yesterday I was on the computer doing loads of admin, so I'll make sure I have a spine roll in there or whatever happens to be. So I think the mindful minute’s a really pertinent one, um, uh, one that gets a lot of people, a lot of love is called overhead. Its um, this is coming from the body section and it's about, uh, basically you float your arms. So if we do it seated, Stephanie, uh, find yourself comfortably seated and you just float your arms up above your head, making sure that your shoulders don't rise right up there. So keeping some space between the ear lobes and the shoulders, uh, clasp them above your head, like as if you were shaking your well, sort of doing a yes. Pray ‘woo, I've won something can pose.’ And then imagine this is a bit of an imagery thing now, but imagine like an eight has fallen over and is on your head like you're wearing an eight like a hill. Oh, okay. And you're just gonna draw figures of it around your head with your hands. Okay. So you're lifting up and out of the ribs, keeping the hips nice and still doing nice big. So I'm coming off the mic now, but nice big circles all the way around. Um, and what we're doing with this one is lifting up and out and stretching the ribs, stretching the waist, giving the spine a little twist, which is really nice for opening the ribs and making breathing a little easier.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah, it totally lifts the rib. Like if we're just lifting your arms up in that way, it, it does open up the ribcage more so that you have more access to your breath. I see that. So it's very important to be aware of what's going on with your body. I know people often say, listen to your body because as you say, well maybe you do need to do some rules, you do need to, I don't know if someone has like a roller ball, they need to get their thoracic spine kind of work to be.

Nic Redman:
Exactly.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Which kind of feels like something. And like maybe we're doing a bit of that just now. But that's great. But how about a vocal warmup? Um, maybe we can focus on those.

Nic Redman:
Yeah, let's have a look. Uh, which one should I do? Um, alright, so one of the most important things to do is like release the, is release the vocal tract really and release some tension. Um, oh, hang on. Should we do one with noise though? 'cause that's better air, isn't it?

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah, noise. Gimme the noise.

Nic Redman:
. Um, let's do, um, okay. Puffy fricative. So this is about encouraging nice consistent closure of the vocal folds. Really nice, easy oscillation or creation of those vibrations with the air. So a nice consistent airflow. And you get a little bit of articulation release as well, depending on which, um, uh, fricative you use. Now a fricative is a, a sound that's made with a little bit of friction, so two articulators coming together and the air kind of seeps out around them basically. So something like, uh, as in a th like this or as in vegetable Z as in zebra or as in measure. So one of those sounds and you take the sounds, whichever one's easiest for you is the basic takeaway, whichever one you feel is easiest and just gently glide up and down your range so you can go and you keep it really puffy and free. So I'm not going like in really everything's nice and tight, it's easy chill, like relax.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah. There's a lot of room for that air.

Nic Redman:
Yes.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Kind of like just. Yeah. It's very free and very loose. Yeah. You're, you're, you know, it's not tight or anything, it's just, that's another way of warming up.

Nic Redman:
Yeah. We're trying to let Lego of tension and what this does is sort of regulate the airflow and also it shows your voice that it can vibrate with minimal muscular engagement around the larynx which is what we want because when the breath isn't supported properly or when the, when the voice gets tired because sometimes the voice gets supported and pushed from the throat area, you know, a lot of the time with voice overs, I, I get them coming to me for coaching saying I feel like my voice comes from here and they point to their throat and I'm like, well it does come from there. That's where the vocals are , but I know what you mean. You mean it feels painful or it feels tense and that's about breath. So this is really nice for like getting that breath flow supported and getting the vocal folds coming together really easily.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Nice. So as you had mentioned earlier, people can use a QR code, they can scan that, they can watch you do these warm ups. That's awesome. 'cause not all of us learn by listening or even by reading about something. Right. So, um, I really love that there's so many, especially 38 vocal warm ups because sometimes you get bored, you need some variety and some flavor. So that will help us to build the repertoire. People can watch those videos through the QR code. Wonderful. So, um, you had mentioned on your website that sometimes you can mix and match these warm ups. Are there any combinations that you think are particularly useful?

Nic Redman:
Um, it's definitely good to pick one from each section to start with. Um, what's nice for me is the ones that go together. So it's not like you have to do the four separate exercises, one after the other because it's all about doing it quick and easily. Right. You know, sometimes the script comes in and the producer's like, I need this bag yesterday and you've gotta like jump straight on the mic. So for example, what we just did the figure of eights and the puffy fricative, you can do those together. So you could do that stretching and opening of the ribs and that sound creation and getting the vocal falls and the articulators going at the same time. So I like those ones, that kind of piece together. So for example, um, the hip circles is in there where you make big, lovely kind of juicy hip circles. You could add in a little lip drill, which is another one in there on onto that. That's again, getting the airflow going, getting the lips released, getting the vocal folds closing nice and easily. That goes really well with any of the like body release rolly type stuff. Um, and I like also what my favorites from later on in the deck. So when we move on to like the breath sort of support bit, which is about getting the breath energized, um, it's nice to go from uh, the puffy fricatives just gliding into puffy revs. Like, so you're getting a little bit of engagement with the support muscles in the lower abdominal area. So you go from that nice chilled easy bit into that, all right, come on, let's get the work done. More kind of Revvy energetics phase.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Right. And you're working those intercostal muscles when you're singing your, or like accessing your diaphragm. And so if anyone's like, I wanna be, you know, more muscular, I wanna work out of the gym, but, but I can't get to every muscle. You actually can't work the intercostals unless you are singing like it's really hard. There are very few exercises that can get on the internal. So these exercises with your fricatives, be they puffy or not , you know, like every, if everything's coming from that, that kind of thrust from within the diaphragm. Um, just putting that out there for people who are like, oh I don't exercise. Like you are a voice artist, you are exercising. You need to be mindful of all your breathing and the way you're, you're acting and, and it takes so much energy. I think I was just talking about this with someone the other day and they were like, yeah, like this actually is exhausting. Like voice acting or doing voice over, narrating, is exhausting and you have to prepare your body for it or else you, you'll just crash.

Nic Redman:
Yeah. And I think for me it's about, it's the voice deck and the work that I do. And what I try and advocate in the book as well is that like the speaking bit shouldn't be the exhausting bit. You know, your voice can flow easily and freely. Whether it's extreme for a game or whether it's, you know, 49,000 pages of really dull e-learning , the making of the sound can come easily. Um, uh, it may be mentally taxing, it may be physically taxing 'cause you're standing for a long time, but the voice can come freely and easily. So that's what I am for with all my clients is giving them a sense of ease and freedom and the voice so that they're not worrying about that bit and they can focus on everything else.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah. You had mentioned cool downs earlier when we were talking and, and obviously warmups. We all we're all convinced, we all know that these are important, but to cool down to feel like you've got closure even to your, your day vocally is important too. And perhaps even between sessions, if you got a big gap. So what does it look like to cool our voice down? How do we do that?

Nic Redman:
Yeah, so resets and cool irons generally focus on release. So what you're doing is trying to contract any tension that may be creeping up 'cause you've been anxious or you've recorded for a long time or it's been quite extreme. So you might wanna release a bit of tongue tension and jaw attention. You also might want to take yourself into a place where the airflow is consistent but not quite as energetic and energized as your on mic voice. You know, we all tend to speak in a slightly more chilled register with a little bit of vocal fry or any of that kind of stuff. A bit more relaxed. So sometimes it's just about bringing your voice from the performance space down into um, hey babe, it's tea time kind of kinda space. Um, so things like yawns really good, which is great 'cause I'm usually, anyway, tongue stretches. Also a little, uh, yawn into, I think I've got yawn into cre in here, which is a like a, like a yawn. Ooh.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Mm

Nic Redman:
Yes. Into that gentle, bubbly, really released vocal fry. Different to that ah, fry, like read tense fry. It's more like a creek quality I suppose. If we wanna get detailed with the language, it's just like sort of different bits of vocal folds of vibrating, I'll knock into the details, it's not necessary, but you just get a kind of slightly different vocal fold closure and slightly different air pressure, which can help bring you dine from performance mode into real life mode.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Right. And what you just said about vocal fry, it just kind of made me think of something else and uh, I know that a lot of talent not do vocal fry because they know that it's usually because they aren't supporting themselves well, that the airflow is not, you know, that's kind of a side effect of vocal fry, unintentional vocal fry. Um, but is there a way for a talent to do that technique safely that does not harm their voice? Because there's a debate going on within the industry and with, you know, from people who are classically trained versus those who are kind of maybe from a different background, just understanding what, what are the effects of vocal fry? Like is it, can you do it a little bit and control it or do you warm up differently for fry? Does anyone wanna do fry? Like does it just kind of happen, you're like, oops, gotta go correct that. What's, what's your view on it?

Nic Redman:
I think it's fine. Like sometimes it's an action feature, it's a generational feature. It's a, it's a communication tactic and tool as well. Makes people feel a certain way. Makes people show up a certain way. So it's legitimate and necessary and important as, as any vocal feature or style. I think, um, for the most part, to my knowledge, vocal fry, like creek quality vocal fry isn't actually damaging on the vocal folds. Um, it can be tiring and is inefficient and may lead to a little bit of tension if you're using it lots and lots and lots. Because if you start pushing into vocal fry then that's when you get a bit of tension. The key to vocal fry is that it's about release and relaxing. So it's just about um, um, so a nice way of finding it is kind of sighing down into where it's like your low, most comfortable low place pitch wise and just really pulling back on the airflow. So you might go, ah, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and then you've got a lovely creaky quality that you can drop in whenever you want to, you know? So, um, what the problem happens when people use creek quality or vocal fry, but they need loads of expression and volume 'cause you're not gonna get that because of the way the vocal folds are closing on closing at a little differently. So like it's really hard to get variety with vocal fry. It's really hard to get light with vocal fry becomes a different thing. So, um, it's just about using it in the right place and not pushing with it and it's actually really useful vocal tool, cool down tool because it helps release tension.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Well good to know. Cause I know that it has been vilified in some circles and it has been praised in others. So it's always good to

Nic Redman:
Don’t get me on that soapbox .

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Oh maybe one day we will. Um, but because I know that I, I am kind of on one side of that debate, but I I've come to appreciate through various, um, you know, opinions expressed that it has use in certain areas but it also for the cooling down 'cause my own um, speech language path, uh, pathologist, speech therapist, she uses a tool to go exactly down, like go from the yawn sigh and have like that hinge kind of ugh. Where you get down into where, and it's just part of, part of that bottom range that you need to kind of let loose. And it doesn't matter what sounds like sometimes sounds absolutely ugly, right. But it's kind of like part of the process for warming up the voice. You don't have to use every part of your range, you just need to have it.

Nic Redman:
Yeah. And actually the important thing about a warmup, um, is that even if you're not using every part of your range, you should warm up as much of it as possible every time anyway. Otherwise, you know, it's that use it or lose it thing. So, you know, a singer should be warming up all of their notes that they have access to, even if they're only singing a song that has a slightly smaller pitch range because it's just, it's about the elasticity and the movement and the flexibility and the mobility and, and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, we should always be warming up all the bits even if all we've got to do that day is just talk like this.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
, you gotta love those arpeggios, you know, get up in that hop, that top range. So. Wonderful. I'm glad you you mentioned that. I'm glad we went down the rabbit hole of vocal fry even just for a little while.

Nic Redman:
Just for a moment.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Just for a moment. So, uh, but um, obviously getting a warmup into our schedule is important and you say you can do it at any time of the day, you know, on your way to somewhere, maybe you are somewhere you do it quietly, whatever. Um, how important is it that we actually find a way, 'cause some of us forget, you know, it might be just good to put it in that calendar or have a reminder, um, you know, how can we schedule these vocal warmups and cool downs? Like, is is that something people do or am I just being a little too Type A?

Nic Redman:
I think it's everybody's different. Um, and I think I schedule stuff and it helps me schedule things with a warmup. I think the first step to scheduling it is helping people realize it doesn't have to take a long time. So if I was to say it everybody, well you need a warmup for an hour every single day. That's just ridiculous because if only I had the time to do an hour's voice work every single day, that would be lovely. Thank you. Um, but it's about warming up your voice for the job you've got to do. If I've got to jump off the mic and do 10 phone and prompts and that's all that's come in that day, a pretty quick two-minute warm up is probably all I need. So scheduling as much as much about assessing and organizing exactly what you need to do in that moment. And certainly for some people, if you don't do any recording one day, if you're having an admin day or a marketing day, you might not need a warm warmup at all. And that's fine. And that might be a day we spend 15 or 20 minutes on the floor doing some breath work or some physical body work or something like that instead. So the first thing is make it manageable. Um, next thing is make it relatable to what you need to do in your voice. So most people who come to me with an inefficient warmup are doing stuff that's not, they're doing stuff that's either repetitive or designed for singing, which isn't necessary for speaking. Uh, or it's, um, it's not necessary for the job they've got to do. So it's just about looking at what you're doing, whether it's the right thing, tweaking it, and finding a spot where it fits for you.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Right. And part of that will be just going through the deck, seeing what's in there and understanding which warmups are, are kind of more, um, helpful in that way for, for what you might be doing. So, yeah.

Nic Redman:
And look, it's not like a catchall, it's not this is the only thing you need, but what it has become is a useful tool, a reminder, um, something for inspiration, something to pick people up when they're like, oh, I should do it, but I don't know what to do. , you know, it's, it, it's, it's an, some people like I I sort of equate it to gadgets. You know, some people drink water, some people have an app that reminds 'em to drink water. Some people have a Bluetooth water bottle that reminds 'em to drink water. Some people tick a box when they've had some water, some people don't, you know, same with warmup. Some people do the warmup. Some people wanna use a straw when they warm up. Some people don't. Some people like steaming and have a gadget. Some people don't. Some people like the voice deck 'cause it gives something tangible and useful that they can open and have some inspiration from rather than having to Google a video or warmups online or something like that. And actually that was one thing that a couple of people have said is that it's so nice to have something that's, um, not digital .

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Oh yes. Tangible

Nic Redman:

Something that's in their hands. It's a thing they can take away from the screen for five to 10 minutes and just be a bit analog for a while. Which I, I hadn't even thought about, but that's a lovely piece of feedback.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Yeah, well it it's just, it's like holding a book in your hands or it's like the physical doing of something and, and like taking a card and looking at it, turning it over, you know, feeling that that paper quality that you spent so much time Nic working on to get it just right.

Nic Redman:
GSM master

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
So that, that's awesome. Okay, so where can we go to get our own, uh, voice deck

Nic Redman:
Just to my website? Yeah, so it's on my website NicRedmanVoice.com and there's a resources tab. It's just in there. I'm actually collecting a wait list at the moment 'cause I've run out of the the current, uh, print run. So if you're interested, stick your name down and as soon as they're available again, I'll let you know.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
All right. NicRedmanVoice.com. You heard it here. So thank you so much for joining us. I know you've got a new book coming out. When does that come out? What's its title? Give us a little taste of it.

Nic Redman:
So, um, it's called On the Mic Voice Training for Voice of Artists, podcasters, speakers and Presenters. And it is, yeah, a basically step by step through my process, body Breath, sound, speech. There's a lot of awareness exercises in there. I wanted to make people feel empowered to know their voice and understand what it needs to help it if it's in crisis, uh, to warm it up and get the most out of it. And when they're on the microphone, I'm really proud of it because it's really inclusive. So the images are beautifully representative of everybody. It's printed in a dyslexic friendly font. So if you do, if reading is not your friend, then you know it, it should be much more easily accessible for you. And it's available onthemicbook.com and it will be out or is out or has come out at 16th of March .

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
Oh, wow. Alrighty. Well, I think that by the time we all hear this episode, the book should be available. So, um, thank you again for joining us today, Nic, and hopefully we'll talk to you again soon.

Nic Redman:
Thank you.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:
And that's the way we saw the world through the lens of voice over this week. Thank you for listening to this great interview with Nic Redman and for going on the vocal journey we just experienced today in preparing your instrument through the warming up of your voice. So to learn more about our guest, you can visit her, NicRedmanVoice.com to check out the voice deck, NicolaRedman.com for anything else you might wanna know about her for coaching, et cetera. And for Voices, I'm your host, Stephanie Ciccarelli. This show is produced by Geoff Bremner. You've been listening to Vox Talk. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next week.