Today on the show, we welcome Joseph Frustaglio, Audio Producer, Composer and Senior Engineer at Boombox Sound.
Joseph talks about sound for advertising, how producing an audio ad differers from TV commercials, and how to ensure the message cuts through regardless of when and where the ad is being heard.
Starting as an intern at a large Toronto studio, to working for the Toronto-based audio house BoomBox Sound as a Voice Director, Music Producer, Composer, and Chief Engineer, Joseph has become a sort of “Swiss army knife” of audio. Understanding all aspects of commercial audio production allows Joseph to hone in on sonic quality and performance to bring a brand’s ideas to life. And today, he’s joining us on Voice Branding.
Hey, it's David Cicerrelli, CEO and co founder of Voices. Well, today on the show we have Joe Festalio, audio producer, composer, senior engineer at Boomboxound. Joe and I are going to be talking about Stanford advertising, how producing audio ads differs from TV commercials, and how to ensure that your message cuts through regardless of when and where the ads are actually being heard. But first, let me introduce Joe initially starting as an intern at a large Toronto studio to working now at a Toronto based audio house. As I mentioned, Boombox Sound, he has the role of voice director, music producer, composer, and chief engineer. Joe's become, let's call it, a sort of a Swiss Army knife of audio. Understanding all aspects of audio production allows Joe to Hone in on the Sonic quality and performance. Those two things are really important, really, to bring a brand's ideas to life. So today he's joining us on voice branding. Joe, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Awesome. Well, we're lucky to have you also dialing in, if you will, from Studio A. I think all of us probably have a passion in life early on that eventually turns into a career. So I'm sure there's a bit of a story there for you, maybe for our listeners you could share. Why did you get into audio engineering and kind of pursue that have that as your educational pursuit? Yeah, well, I'm sure there's a lot of people sort of who get into this sort of industry. I started picking up a guitar when I was ten years old and wanted to sort of emulate all the bands that I loved back then, like Blink 182 and all that stuff. So, yeah, sort of playing the band growing up joined forces with a buddy who was a drummer, just learning how to play drums and then who played bass, and from there we played all through high school. I actually didn't initially go into audio engineering. I actually went to Western for five years in London. Yeah. And I took geology. That's a bit of a turn. It's a bit of a stretch. Yeah. I always make the cheesy joke that I studied rock in one way, and then I studied rock. That's right. But yeah, I sort of finished up like I enjoyed my time Western. It was great. I mean, I wasn't maybe the most studious student. I didn't think I quite jived with geology, but. Yeah. So I sort of went looking around a buddy who of mine who sort of helped me record some stuff, sort of mentioned a couple of audio schools in London when I was there. And I looked at Fanshaw and I looked at OER and I decided, you know what? After getting into some bedroom recording and buying some monitors and buying them a first microphone and audio interface, instead of learning the basics, I decided, you know what? Maybe I'd like to do this for a career. And also I really just wanted to be able to record my own music and make it sound good. Yeah. That's usually where it begins. But listen, then you practice and then you get these opportunities to be on stage. I think that's such a great experience. You learn there's a lot of what we now know as soft skills that are so important in a studio environment of how to engage with artists, how to ask questions, make people feel comfortable, frankly, because it's not an environment that you're actually in all the time. Being in a recording studio and working with voice talent, being in a vocal booth, it seems a bit of a foreign concept. So I would imagine you probably picked up a lot of those experiences just engaging with one another. You mentioned some of the equipment that you had. I'm always curious as well. Do you remember the first piece of gear that you actually purchased? You mentioned some of them or maybe one that you got your hands on as a teenager where you're like, okay, I kind of see the possibilities of how you can record. Yeah. So recording gear was probably the first thing I got a Road Mt, one a there's like a package with the shock Mount and the attached pop filter and stuff like that. So I got one of those, and I got a Steinberg Ur 22 and the classic Rocket Five speakers, the Cr K. Yeah, everything's long gone now. I've sold all those off now, but they were a great starter package. And I'd say guitar. I just got one of those starter packs with the ten Watt amp and the Squire Candy Apple Red guitar. Yeah. But that's what you need to get things going, because I think sometimes performers, artists, voice talent believe that in order to be successful, you need the equipment. And I would argue it's almost the inverse of like, let's put in the effort and the time and Hone the skills first, and the equipment will bring out the best in you, whether it's a microphone or a preamp. But it's not going to be the make or break. I mean, I'm sure we've all heard really talented musicians and performers. They can really pick up any instrument and just make the thing sing. Yeah, totally. Yeah, for sure. It's more about the skills and the knowledge. And honestly, the practice is just the repetition. It's just knowing what you're looking for in a sound because it's very abstract. Right. When you first sort of hear something through a microphone, you're like, is that what it's supposed to sound like, or is that what I'm going for? And then as you do it more and more over the years, you just sort of discover that sound you're looking for and how to get it and sort of what gear you gravitate towards. And at the beginning, it's not going to be the best gear you're going to be using a $200 interface and whatever, and you sort of learn to use that. And I remember starting out and I had access to tons of gear, like at school and even like we could play around at the studio that I interned at and stuff like that. And I've come leaps and bounds from them just being practicing over and over and over again, just recording. Well, it's pretty much get your hands on what you can. And even one of the things we encourage talent to do, or producers who are trying to experiment with the sound, you can often even rent equipment just over a weekend. Yes. Long McQuaid is great for that. Yeah. I used to work at Long McQuaid, rented tons of gear. Yeah. Well, because you don't know if it's going to fit either physically fit into your space sometimes or it's just going to fit, as you said, that sound that you can almost hear it in your head and you really want to make that become real. It does a lot of experimentation in that we should be talking about also kind of translating that from the creative aspect into almost a commercial work and particularly around advertising, maybe just right off the bat. I mean, is there a lot of ads that you're producing now? What kind of ads are corporate clients coming in to your studio for? Or is Boombox more known for the music side and commercial work isn't as much, but are you seeing some Advertisement work getting done? Oh, yeah, we do that's pretty much our bread and butter. We work not exclusively, but like I'd say, 75% with advertising agencies and production companies doing audio for ads. I will be working on one later today. Yeah. We do everything that the client would ask in terms of full coverage. We'll do music, we'll do voiceover, do casting, we'll do the sound design, we do the final mix, recording session, everything like that. And spit out a final product for broadcast, for radio, for web is sort of all over the map. Yeah, that's awesome. How do ads differ in kind of those various audio formats? If you're producing an audio ad, maybe just walk us through that process because you kind of described it. But a corporate client is going to come to you or as you say, ad agency or the production house, another production house they're coming to you with. Is it just a concept or do they have a script in mind? They already have the talent, probably all above. But what's your process? Maybe you can unpack that for us. Yeah. So typically someone will come to us for a job or like previous client, new client. Typically, I would say the brief is the first thing that we get. I think the brief is very key. It's funny. A couple of years ago, right before the Pandemic, I was interested to see the other side of the world because we work with advertising agencies, but honestly, I didn't have a whole wealth of knowledge about the process of an advertising agency. So I went to George Brown and took a copywriting course just for fun. Okay. Just to sort of see that side. And they really stress the brief. It's all about the creative brief. The Creative brief is your Bible per se. And nothing should be outside of this creative brief that you create. And I sort of think the brief is super important for us, first from a client, just to sort of get the scope of work, the tone that they're going for, because you can't really build off anything unless you know the scope of work that they're looking for and the type of tone and type of ad they're looking to produce. So they usually give us a voiceover brief, rough age, rough sex. Or they could be open either male or female and tone. And then if it's original music or stock music, we'll get a brief regarding that. Obviously, original music is a little more in depth in terms of creating and composing and having other people collaborating and stuff like that. Is there a script already kind of fleshed out at that point in the voice, or is it more just like kind of creative direction? There'll be a rough script usually. Yeah, there'll be a rough script, depending if we're doing like a we do two types of casting, casting from demos. So we'll hop on different websites for Voices.com. Yeah. We'll just cache from demos for their spec, or we'll listen to demos, have people either come in or do it over Zoom now and they'll read the script and what they have. It's subject to change, of course. But yeah, there usually be a script accompanying that kind of stuff. I almost hate to ask, do clients ever come to you with no creative brief and you kind of send them back to the drawing board? Like, listen, you can't really get started until you got this sometimes. I was recently doing a project where they were very open to the type of music it was stock music. It's more forgiving if they're open to music, and it's stock music. So when you have to create original music a little more tough, you definitely want to Hone in on the sound you're looking for in the genre and the instrumentation and all that jazz. But yeah, they were open to sort of anything we sort of had to offer anything we thought would be good. Obviously, you have to use your creative instincts to Hone in on one or two or three types of genres. Yeah. Can't be experimenting at some point. We got to narrow down and make choices. Right. I mean, it's the definition of creativity as well as strategy in business is that you're making a selection of choices, and they're often what I referred to as self reinforcing. The previous choice kind of informs the next set of choices that you have to make. One last question, if I may, on this creative brief, because you probably have it in your mind, like, I know I need to hit these sections. Do you ever work from a template or even provide that if clients are just kind of struggling ahead of time or is it more like you just try to guide them through the process, but it's more of the onuses on them? Yeah, we more try to guide them through the process if they haven't quite provided enough information or enough. We still have a few questions. You don't want to be asking too many questions because then it makes you sound like you're full of questions. Yeah. You definitely want to be confident in what you're saying and all that stuff. So we definitely try to if we're not provided with creative brief, luckily enough, a lot of our clients are pros and really give us I was going to bring that up. You're working with ad agencies and production houses, and I would imagine even a corporate market, like a brand marketer creative producer at an organization. They've probably done this a few times to know what they're looking for. So let's kind of fast forward. We got the creative brief. Are you starting with music? Are you starting with a storyboard or a script? What's kind of the next phase there? We usually get boards, typically with the invite email. Someone will reach out. They'll usually have boards by that time time, and then they'll usually be looking for voice first, more or less. Just because I find voices easier to find in some senses. Like it's quicker in terms if you have to create original music, that sometimes takes a week or a couple of days for sure. And we're voice casting, you can sort of get that going in a couple of hours or at least putting it together in a couple hours. If you're having the record, maybe it could take a day or two to set up a casting and put in the time slots and all that stuff. And are you finding talent coming in for the audition or you mentioned Zoom as well, for remote auditions? When and where do you kind of pick? Is it a matter of budget or client preference or is it just like more of geography of where the talent are like, oh, it's more about getting access to the talent and working around their schedules, if you will. Yeah. Typically, honestly, before the pandemic, it was people coming in all the time. It was a rarity that it would be over Zoom or any other sort of remote recording. Sure. Obviously, certain circumstances, some people couldn't come in like a casting. Yeah. You're coming in. You're not guaranteed anything. Like you're just coming into audition, your driving out. But typically it was always in studio before. Now a lot of it's over Zoom. I mean, it's quicker. It's probably easier for the talent, I'm sure. Yeah. I always love when talent has great equipment and they're right on it with the recording side of things is super easy for us when talent has that together. So is it Zoom just for the audition? Are you actually doing like a source connect kind of studio to studio patch as well, too? For the audition, it'll typically be I'll get them to record on their side and then they send us the files. Perfect. It's the live kind of, if you will, face to face communication where it just makes, as we were stressing earlier, the importance of the rapport and having the talent feel comfortable and as well as you as a producer communicating what we're looking for here, that doesn't always come across just by typing it out. We can misinterpret what somebody means just by the words that someone's saying is like, what are you emphasizing here? And that's actually a real skill and I think actually candidly a very challenge for talent to interpret what clients mean and then actually have to perform it. So I think it's a really good point and a great service that you're doing for talent and then also for your end client, for you to be able to provide that direction even at the audition stage. So you select the talent you now have, kind of like there's probably some holding of a script. How often would you say that that script gets fine tuned, if you will, between that initial audition and final recording, if you will? It depends on how far those are apart, but I would say it's not uncommon to have new scripts coming in the door ten minutes before the session. Right. One of our executive producers will. Yes, we'll be like all new scripts coming in. Sorry, guys like new ones, swap them out. What do you think? What is prompting that? Is it a different call to action? Is it basically the same content, but maybe word smithing a little bit? Or is there like a price change or a location and date change, like something more material? I would say it's more subtle content change. It's usually not like we do some ads where it is like there are prices, there are dates and stuff like that. Those are very much call to action for this weekend or this month. This thing is going on. Right. But I feel like a lot of brands like to do just over encompassing as where it just encompasses their brand in terms of and they can play it at any time. Obviously you need media buyers and stuff like that, but a lot of it's adding alt. People like to have safeties and different things that they or what if it sounds good like this? What if it sounds good like this? Almost like an indecision, if you will, of like, because it might not always be synced up to picture either, which is I do want to definitely touch on because we chatted previously around this idea of how pure audio only ads differ from TV commercials. So maybe you could explain what are those significant differences? Perhaps aside from the obvious, where there's no picture, are you doing anything different to the sound? Are you mixing it differently if there's no picture? Yeah, I would say sound effects are a big thing that are quite different. Obviously, you have a picture, you have to match what's creatively. You match what's going on in the picture, whether it's like digestic sounds or the sounds in the spot or some sound design that's going on and stuff like that. But when you have an audio only ad, you're more free to do what you want with sound design. And you do have to more create an environment as opposed to letting the eyes see what the environment is. Right. You can create some cool stuff with some panning tricks, like some tight room Reverb and stuff like that. You can create different spaces and sort of place the person in it's. Funny, I'm sure a lot of these ads audio ads only while the Spotify and then radio and I'm sure in the car. I'm sure this stuff doesn't translate as well when people are driving down the highway. But you do a lot of fun stuff with panning, different reverbs and just different effects that sort of place you in that spot. Yes. It's important to understand because I was initially thinking that you were going to say, oh, well, you're matching the sound to the picture. The sound effects have to have to whether that's I don't know, a dog walking pitter pattering across the hallway or maybe a door closing, but you're almost kind of creatively constrained to match what's on screen. And then when that's not there, you actually have a lot more freedom to experiment, maybe to embellish. Do you almost feel like, OK, because there isn't the picture? I have to make these sound effects even more pronounced to have the listener really understand, as you said, the space that they're in, for sure. It's almost like a caricature, like you're embellishing it a lot more to make it stand out. Is that fair? Yes, that's totally fair to say. Yeah. You definitely have to have more. It has to be a little bit more obvious in terms of where you're supposed to be. I feel like the ad does inform that as well. The voiceover. It sort of depends on the type of ad. But sometimes in radio ads or audio only ads, they'll be like, if it's a 32nd ad, the top half might be a little skit between an actor or two, and that'll sort of inform where you are. And then the back half might be their announcer that says the tagline and what's going on with the product and what they're trying to advertise. Okay, very cool. So I think we covered that process as well. And I just want to end it this portion here with exporting to these different file formats, because sometimes this can be a forgotten step of not only just mixing it down, but mastering into a file format, knowing where it's going to end up. How much of this is a consideration or is this more something that is everything that's going to a wave file or are you actually exporting to a different file format? Maybe bit rate or sample rate, depending on. Oh, well, this is going to be uploaded for a Spotify ad campaign versus to broadcast. Yeah, typically it's wave, especially for broadcast and web broadcast, you're giving a 5.1 as well as the stereo. For Web, you're giving typically wave, just stereo. If you're going to radio and stuff like that, that's where the file sizes get smaller. Radio typically asks for MP threes, funny enough, and Spotify, I think has to be some crazy small file size that doesn't actually make any sense for 32nd ads. So usually you just give them as small as they can get them an MP3 at a smaller bit rate or something like that. Yeah, I think they asked for it under 1 MB for 32nd ad, but I don't actually think that can actually even happen. Yeah, it's probably to ensure people aren't uploading 100 megabyte wave files, but it's interesting that usually we think of and at least the parlance within voiceover space is broadcast quality implies the highest quality. But what I'm hearing you say is it's actually a reduction. It's a compressed audio format which is MP3 directly to us. Would you ever send that directly to a station or a network or is that going to the ad agency? And then they're kind of putting the buy in. Typically it's going to an ad agency. Every so often
we've had to upload it to a third party platform of some kind that delivers these to we have to do it for a while, but I haven't done it in a little while. There was one client that we had that we always uploaded their radio ads, typically for picture. If it's something for picture, we won't. I've never uploaded it to a provider and then it goes to broadcast because they have to marry the picture. There's a whole bunch of picture stuff that happens after audio, like the online process. Sometimes the color won't be done and then they'll have to stripe everything, all of our audio to picture, package it up, and then they have all their different aspect ratios and all that stuff. That's all video problems. I appreciate and respect the complexity there, but that's definitely not my area of expertise either. I just know even with producing variations of audio formats, there can be sometimes dozens depending on kind of where it's showing up and even uploading to Spotify. Sometimes they'll be asking for different, almost like different for lack of better term formats, depending on or they might even translate it, depending on if it's going to be for in the car or on mobile, like wherever you're listening and streaming it from. I think it just gives a better experience. Similarly, on Netflix does that, depending on whether you're watching something on the phone, tablet for sure, or TV. So let's circle back to, I think, the advertising as well, and particularly the message itself. There is the words that need to be said, but there's also this whole soundscape that you've designed. How do we ensure that the message still cuts through that? Is it mixing or ensuring that there's not kind of conflicting sounds? Maybe let's start there just ensuring the message itself, which is likely what the advertisers looking for. How does that make sure that gets through all the other Sonic elements for sure? Well, I mean, obviously a lot of the message would be in, like the direct messaging would be in voiceover. Yeah. It's creating your other elements around it. The voice is always the star. The voice is always front and center. Nothing should be getting in the way of the voice. The voice should always be the clearest thing you can hear. And the challenge is having everything else sound full and big and be able to hear everything else while also being able to hear the voice clears day. You sort of learn how to do that. I found it a lot easier as I go through my career. Obviously, when I was just starting here at Boombox, I sort of started as a fact. I had my own room, but I was very much a junior engineer. Probably thrust into some situations where I just had to fake it until I made it. But I find it a lot easier as just practicing and getting familiar with placement of everything and certain levels and what things should sound like in terms of getting the voice to be the star of the show. There are other things like the messaging and the music, the messaging and the sound design sort of all informs, sort of the brand identity, if you will. Like the type of music, the genre of music, the instrumentation, the type of sound effects. You might think it's sort of straightforward, but it sort of takes a little bit of practice to sort of read that and figure out what's going to work best for the specific ad. Like, obviously, when you figure out the direction of music that all plays into it,
do you mix first with, just like, the voiceover solo and then kind of build around that, or is it. I sort of do it all at once. Yeah, I like to have everything all at once. First thing I do, once we get a voiceover select, is clean it up, clean it up first, get everything nice and shiny. But, yeah, I like recording with the recording with music, sound effects, everything like that. So you get the full experience. You have clients sitting back here, I try to make it sound as finished product as I can when clients are here because it helps sell the idea through, it helps sell the page through. It helps sell everything through when it sounds like it should coming out of the speakers as it's recording. Yeah, almost like leaving as little to the imagination as possible because otherwise it's like, well, we're either reintroducing questions like what's the music selection? I really love that you brought up recording with the music. And I know a lot of talent also prefer that because there's a certain kind of cadence and pacing that if you can pace the script for beats to a bar, if you will, because in such a manner it actually flows a lot better. And some folks think like voiceover is just literally talking into a microphone. But there is this musicality about it that's what I was going to say is there's like a downbeat, there's a certain pacing that it clicks. It's kind of like being in the group when you're playing in the drums and you're just in that pocket. And same thing with voiceover if you have the music there. So encourage. I guess my word of encouragement here for other producers, as Joe is suggesting, is help the talent. You'll get the best performance out of them if you can provide the music ahead of time for them to either rehearse, especially it sounds like when you're doing the recording, have the talent hear the music and kind of read along with that pacing. Totally. I would always say it informs the tone and the delivery. And like you said, yeah, voiceover and all the elements of as much as it is advertising, it still is art. And as much as all of those elements come together and sort of play in a musical way and if they're doing right, it should all flow. There's times where I'm mixing an ad, I'm like bobbing my head because the voiceover is going with the music just right and the timing is hitting great. And those are the great performances, too, where we can get the actor in the zone, they get the timing down. We'll run it a few times so they can get the spot and the timing down and where their beats should hit. And then as you get into the groove and the consistency is there, those are the really good I love those sessions. I'm sure it just makes for a great session. The clients happy when we wrap it up for the day as well, too. Do you think that brands are thinking about sound differently nowadays versus maybe it may not be the first thing, but they're recognizing that it plays such an important role. It is the literal words that are coming out of an actor's mouth that are kind of like that audio ambassador. They're representing the brand, and maybe there's other channels. How are brands thinking about sound differently than perhaps even five or ten years ago. Well, yeah, for sure. Obviously, having the brand voice is a big thing. Like, you have a recognizable voice. Audio is in sound like it really taps into your memory. That's why people still remember jingles from like, 20 years ago. Exactly. Mnemonics. And stuff like that. I can play you. I don't know the McDonald's. Mnemonic. And people will know without even the words. They'll know exactly what that is. Right. So, yeah, obviously, those are definitely important. Having good Sonic branding, having a good mnemonic. I do think a brand's message can get stronger if they have someone do consistently, they have the same actor doing the same thing over and over again. You sort of get a brand personality, and the brand message is clear and consistent over their spots and different avenues of providing that kind of stuff. Like, there's a lot of diving into VR and AR, things like installments at certain events and stuff like that. We've done a few jobs lately where there's been an installment, even if it's not for a brand, if it's for a TV show. We did an installment where we created a couple of custom tracks for a bigger show that came out, I don't know, maybe a month ago, and you go into this room and you sit down on this throne, and then whichever character you picked that custom track played, and then the whole room sort of changed into this augmented reality. Oh, wow. Space. I mean, I wish I got to do it was down in La. I only got to see the boards and hear the tracks and work on the tracks. But, yes, that kind of stuff is sweet. There are some shoe brands that are doing some cool stuff with that kind of I feel like we've done a few jobs for some shoe brands that are really into the augmented reality. Yeah. Almost immersive experiences. It's going beyond just being at home and listening to something on your Alexa or Google Home, and it's got it synced up to Spotify. I might play your songs or if you're on the free version, you're probably hearing ads along the way or in the car. And it goes there's still going to be the two main ones, but then out of home, you're right. There's these experiences that whether it's at the movies or these installations at a conference or live event where I think very progressive brands want to try and experiment with something new and show the latest, latest and greatest. So, yeah, those are some that I hadn't heard quite like that before, especially the choose your own adventure style, which is pretty cool. It was neat. Are there other ways that you feel or opportunities that you think brands are underutilizing, specifically around audio where you're seeing it's? Like, why aren't more people doing this anything like that kind of come top of mind for you? I always think that I'm sort of biased, but I think audio is plays a huge role in this kind of stuff. I always just think it's underutilized if attention is not paid to it properly. There's a lot of talented people that can do a lot of great things with video, but I find if the audio isn't there, it just doesn't hit the same. It's very obvious when it's like you can do amazing things that are shot on an iPhone. But the sound on an iPhone is terrible and the wind going in the background. Do you not hear this? It becomes distracting from the actual story that's being meant to be told. And it's not immersive. It really takes you out of it. If the sound isn't there, it's definitely not as engaging. I think that's the one word that you would want to probably as a brand, have all your content be engaging. Right. I think audio, you can do amazing things shot on an iPhone, but if the sound isn't there, it's not going to be engaging. You're not going to be there. You're not going to be living that. There's a vocal coach, Pat Fraily, who talks about this notion. I'm sure it's a performing arts idea called suspending disbelief, which is you want the audience or the listener or the viewer to suspend meaning, pause that desire to they know it's not real. They know it's a manufactured or created environment, but they suspend disbelief just for a moment because it is engaging. And they just kind of let go just for that. And it can be as short as you said, 30 seconds, 15 seconds. And over a longer production, be it an audiobook or a documentary or an animated production, you almost believe that this is real. And that's when you know that you have both a great performance and great quality and anything, whether it's just a simple audio artifact or a poor mix that's done or something, that kind of just comes out of nowhere, it actually breaks that feeling of engagement. You're kind of just like, oh, you kind of just snap back into it. So I think that's playing those mixes back, listening for that kind of eyes closed and feeling like you're right there in the moment. But suspending disbelief is one of those concepts. Joe, if people wanted to follow you or your work, where can they do so, I mean, Boombox, sound on Instagram, we got a website, we got Vimeo and all that stuff. I'm not super active on social media, but if your clients let you put up some of the finished product there, I do. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I'd encourage you guys to go out and check Boombox out on Instagram and Vimeo as well, too, for those high quality videos as well. Well, amazing. Joe, thanks for joining me today. I loved our conversation. We covered a lot of ground, both technical as well as artistic and creative, which I think is going to add a lot of value to those listening today. Sure. Yeah. No, thanks. I had a great time. It was good to get to chat about this stuff. Well, don't we do it all the time, so we should do it more often. I appreciate that. And we'll give you a ring when we're in Toronto next. And so I think we should call it for a show today. Well, until next time, I'm David Cesarelli, the founder and CEO of voices and you've been listening to voice. Branding.