Jon Corbin on the Creative Process

Participant #1:

Hey, it's David Ciccarelli, the CEO and co founder of Voices. Well, today on the show we welcome Jon Corbin, owner of Corbin Visual. Jon and I are going to be talking about the creative process, how clients can best prepare for a video shoot, and I'll other visual campaigns to create content that feels real. Plus, along the way, I'm sure he's got lots of advice for new producers about how to interact with talent, maintain those client relationships, too. As a producer, you know, you're at the center of it all. But first, let me introduce Jon. Jon is a video producer and production guru who brings over twelve years of industry storytelling experience to every project that he works on. His innovative use of technology and visual storytelling has been featured the New York Times, Mashable TechCrunch, and he's produced content for some of the biggest players in Canadian media as well, including BuzzFeed and Huffington Post. He's consistently on the cutting edge of production technology and can be described as a digital chameleon, adapting seamlessly to new advertising trends and creating content. As I mentioned earlier, sounds and feels real. And then most importantly, also gets notice from small business owners to Fortune 500 CEOs. Jon is a trusted partner because he's a problem solver who asks the right question at the right time and sees what's possible in what you're trying to create, turning what otherwise might be an arduous production process into something that's truly enjoyable. So I'd love to get into that. Jon, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I just got to bring you everywhere I go. And every time I walk into a room, if you could just say that, then that'd be amazing. I can get that type of awesome welcome every time. Everywhere I go, I'll be your height, man. I'll be your height, man. That's great. All right. Well, thank you for that warm intro and super glad to be here. No, I think, listen, it's going to be a great conversation, and no day in the life is going to be probably the same, especially the variety of clients that you work with, maybe deadline shifting. But if there was such a thing, what's the typical day in the life? I love just kind of opening up with this, whether it was today or Sunday last week. Is there one that's kind of representative of, hey, this is what it feels like to be a content and a producer. Yeah. I think if there's anything that's the same. But every day it's just the hottest fires first, right? It's like opening up your day for me. I'm a. 07:00, a.m. Guy. I like to clear my inbox before the David starts because I think there's one thing people appreciate. It's timely communication. And so if I can make sure that I'm ahead of my day, I think it starts really early in the morning, making sure that everybody gets the information they need for the day, then we'll as long as it's not like crazy, we'll do just kind of like a team huddle to talk about what's most important, get those things out, get those things moving and Cook in as fast as possible. And then if there's no meetings on the docket, which on any given day, just start to work through other issues, be they marketing issues, project management issues, sales issues. I shouldn't say issues. Issues sounds like a negative word, but just action items, if you will. And I think ultimately it always revolves around what the most urgent thing to do is, so that our clients and colleagues and crews feel supported and know that we're there for them and never too busy. It makes sense to start with email first thing in the morning because you don't know what happened the night before where maybe it's a location change, maybe it's again, deadline got pulled up or pushed back and like, hey, let's reassess what the priorities are for the day. There's a notion of urgent versus important that was kind of pioneered by Stephen Cobby, and he talks in the book about The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People knowing to discern the difference between urgent and important. And you're right, in the creative and kind of production world, it is often starting with the urgent. There are important things like, I don't know, reorganizing a filing cabinet or something like, yeah, it's good to know where all my gear is or where all the paperwork, but it's just not urgent and it can always be put off. Now, the challenges have you ever find there's those situations where there's something actually is important that maybe has been kind of put off for a little bit too long, that suddenly becomes urgent, whether it's part of a client request, a recut or something like that come to mind? Yeah. I mean, of course, all the time things I try to never let anything slip, but just something, let's say that wasn't previously a client priority all of a sudden becomes a client priority. And it's like, okay, go, go. Yeah. But I think in general, my world view on communication is, like, always put the ball back in the other person's court, because you don't necessarily, unless you really know the organization intimately. If it's a client, you don't know how long it's going to take them to do things. Even submitted a simple invoice, it might be like a freaking nine step process on the other side. So my philosophy is anything that requires someone else's review and management, get that out as fast as possible, because either they need that information to make decisions or they need to move that request through a pipeline. And I don't want to be the bottleneck. So I always try to get those things out first that require other people because I know internally I can reprioritize and reorganize when it's all on me. So that's how I look at how to deal with those requests and which ones are urgent pressing. And I don't know how to just get them off my brain because I yeah, that's a big part of it, too. So it's almost like the delegation and important part. But recognizing those dependencies, if you're dependent on somebody else to move the project forward, it's better to kind of put it on their plate and they understand so that they can. And you're right. Sometimes in some organizations, there might be three, four or five levels of approval that is just like, oh, my goodness, I didn't see that coming. So let's talk about that creative process, if you will. What is it like for you and maybe by extension, the team? Have you standardized that at Corbin Visual or it's a little bit more ad hoc, but what's the creative process look like for you? Well, I think not to give you a complicated answer to a straightforward question, but no, I think it could be I think it could be as complicated as you want to make it be. It just depends on the client is. Right. Because if it's an agency that is having us handle production, for instance, just like, do the work, then that's a very different request and give us an idea that we're going to love and get excited about. Right. So I think when it comes to executing work on behalf of clients, my first initial reaction is, who is the crew member? Who's the DP? Who's the editor, who's the animator that's going to make this thing dance? And I think a philosophy I have in terms of the type of work we do, whether it be a brief driven or of our own imagination or machination, whatever is like nobody and especially clients don't know what to ask for, but they know what they like when they see it. Yes. And I feel the same way about working with a DP or an animator. I might not be able to tell you exactly what you need to do, but I know if I set you up for success, you're going to do something special. And so the reaction to how creativity blossoms is really a function of who you surround yourself with and what their responsibilities are. And internally, if we're in charge of creative or the idea, honestly, I find it just changes week to week because I see something out on the Internet or on TV or whatever that I get inspired by. I'm like, oh, I'm waiting for the perfect client to adapt that idea, too. So then I kind of deconstruct it technically and then reconstruct it creatively so I can figure out how to adapt this animated format or this piece of augmented reality. Like, it always just comes with experiencing the real world and just being present because not to say that we borrow ideas, but there are no new ideas. Right. I think it's just about how you adapt inspiration through your own world. I think that's what creativity is about, right? It's like, how do you make something your own? Because everything is born of something else. Yeah. I mean, there's an old property that says there's nothing new under the sun, right? It's often like, and then, of course, the famous Mark Twain saying that history doesn't repeat, it rhymes. So there's usually some iteration of that that was inspired from somewhere else. Do you keep these ideas in a Journal or maybe a digital file on an iPad or something like that, or just all up in the noggin, I hope I'm not alone with this where I got my Apple notes open and then I just write the thing down. All of a sudden I have 300 notes. I have no idea where to find it. I do believe, though, that anything you want to do, you have to write down. If you don't write down, write it down. It's not real. And so even if that idea kind of gets buried, I'll know what the keywords are, right? So at least I can search Voices.com and it'll pull up the things relevant to that. It's really about how opportunities come to us and then just how quickly we can deploy all that inspiration. And so this is a really fancy way of saying, yeah, I'm kind of disorganized when it comes to logging idea, but it's just time of the day and type of client. I guess you said you hope you're not alone. I assure you that there's scrapbooks and notebooks and sticky notes or digital files that there isn't really a system. But you're right. It's like the act of just merely getting it out of your head onto paper or Pixel, if you will. Then I think that actually, I'm sure there's science to back this up, that the mere act of your fingers and hands moving actually reinforces that in your own memory. So you're like, oh, it's easier to recall afterwards you chatted about, I love this around. In some situations, clients have a creative brief. Now, those probably are coming from advertising agencies. What goes into a good creative brief? That when you say, hey, we're on the production side, we're just getting this creative brief, and it's got all the instructions, if you will, or desires. What's the makeup of that creative brief? Well, they range in quality, of course, but I think the best briefs actually have slides for all relevant creative departments, from casting to soundtrack to storyboards. Do they just stock images or hand drawn? The idea being that each creative Department that requires work has a vision using words and images, oftentimes visually, they'll just be like reference images or reference soundtracks. So at the very least, I can feel what they're going for. Sometimes words don't do it justice. And so I think the best creative briefs are ones that think through all of the departments that are required to execute the job. Now, less experienced account executives or agencies. I don't want to say it's a bad thing if their brief isn't as thorough, because, listen, nobody's perfect. And it takes time to figure out what the repeatable processes for your organizations look like. And if a brief is less than thorough, I actually see that as an opportunity for me to ask questions and be like, oh, well, I actually get to leave my fingerprints in this area a little bit more than others. And actually, I think that's what the creative process is all about. And every ad agency sorry, I should say my favorite agencies are the ones who give you the sandbox to play in, but let you build your own sand Castle. Because everybody's in this creative business to just leave them a little bit of themselves with the project. And even the best creative briefs do not handcuff you. Yeah, they're not so prescriptive. I actually thought it was really beautiful how you described that. Now you'd mentioned slides. Do you actually receive these, like PowerPoint or Google Slides, or is it a word, like more word document? Probably a bit of both. But what do you prefer and kind of see most effective

Participant #1:
preferred. You know what, honestly, I prefer thorough slides and thorough PowerPoints. Usually if it's from an agency, they've already had to vet and approve the creative client, but they usually will come to me and just do like a quick gut check on this. We're pitching this is this crazy. And I can just let them know if there are any cost implications associated with what they want to do. And agencies that have good relationships with their client would leave a little bit of room to massage ideas because it's got to go in steps and stages. I think, on the other hand, when it's kind of like more B to B, when you're responsible for the idea to get everybody excited, I love that. Then I have to do a little bit more work to paint a picture for the client. And on the back end, I probably take a little bit more pride in the visual and the whole work because that's my baby. Yeah, right. From conception, right through the whole process. And I think on behalf of all our staff and the crews who touch it, I'm simply representing for me as a producer, how a project makes me feel that literally went from white page to colors and images and feelings. So I really value both opportunities. And my relationships with broadcast producers or agency producers look very different than head of marketing because they have just different disciplines. And it's cool because I get to flex different muscles in different relationships. I'd love to hear, is there a request that was a little too outlandish? Or maybe it's like if you want me to explore it, I can. But most things are the constraints of the budget or the time, but without naming names, if you're so willing. Is there a request that kind of comes to mind? You're like, I can't believe they're asking for this. Jumping out of, I don't know, Skydiving with cameras, 360 going around. I have no idea. Any crazy stories you might be able to share with the listeners, you know, when they happen. I make a note. I'm like, oh, this is wild. I got to do something with this story. And then they just time passes and the idea kind of dissipates. I will say, I'll see if I can come up with a story quickly. But the thing without fail that every single client says, no matter the size of their budget, be there a startup or a freaking global brand. Listen, it doesn't need to be a Spielberg production. Everybody is always trying to angle the budget down, right? Like, they always use words to imply that they don't have as much money as you think they do. When it's like, that's not even on my mind as I just talk about what's happening. I know this isn't a Marvel movie. It's always funny to hear them try to say, hey, we want something inexpensive that's still headturning. And I think the truth of the matter is money doesn't equal good idea. Those two things are not inherently married. But what money usually does is it enables coverage in different departments so that your cameraman is not also doing the edit, and it's also doing the sound and the production management. And sometimes clients equate more money with resources that are not required. And so it's just funny to go through it every time, and I put on my okay, ha ha reaction every time. And it's like, okay, let's just talk Turkey here. And we don't need to talk in Hollywood metaphors. But I think from a story standpoint, shoot it'll. Come to me. It's okay. No shortage of unreasonable requests and no shortage of short term memories when at the onset of a project, you tell a client what's possible and not, and midway through the client, all of a sudden they forget that it was extra or it wasn't possible. Yeah, I think it's admirable that you're actually setting those expectations at the outset. And then maybe on the other end of the spectrum, are there clients where they present their ideas or you're collaborating with them and you're like, wow, this could be so much better. And you got to kind of amp it up a little bit and be like, kind of bringing a lot of these what ifs and these type of ideas to the presentation. How are those received? Yeah, honestly, clients always want your ideas. Oh, good. It's a baseline. And that's, in fact, how we will win projects sometime where it's like, here's what my challenges or my communication objectives are. I understand more or less what's happening, but how are you going to make it special? And I think as a producer, that's your job. Your job is to make it special. Your job is to make it memorable. And you are better off taking a big swing when you are just trying to hit a single case by case basis. But I would give you the example of, like, an actor walking into the audition room or a voice actor coming into an audition, like, make a decision, because if you're not memorable, you're not getting hired. People don't always hire just based on the performance. I will hire based on someone's ability to take feedback well or to be a good listener. And I fold all of that energy into my pitches for clients when, like, listen, I'm not always reinventing the wheel, but I'm doing my darndest to communicate why this idea gets me excited and why you should be excited about it, too. So it's not about that. Let's add fire to that Dragon as much as it is. Here's why. This idea is great, and I'm a salesman, and it's my job to channel that idea and present it in a way that's actionable and gets people excited. Well, I mean, that kind of leads to this notion around content that feels real. And we mentioned that in the intro as well, too. Just kind of building off of your not all Dragons need fire breathing out of the mouth. Sometimes it just kind of like over, you know what I mean? Over and above. So where is it? Where it feels real? And then sometimes it's, like, not distasteful, but it feels almost like contrived, like it's kind of too much. Yeah. And it'll either come from the script or the interviews. Right. A lot of this, the idea of being real is like, what is the script? So what's the angle we're taking at this story? And if you're in, like, a documentary style set up, it's like, how are you coaching and leading interview subjects to deliver authentic performances? And if we start with the interviews, it's like leading good interviews, which is the backbone of a majority of the content out there these days. It's all about developing a rapport with the talent. Right. Be it before the camera rolls or immediately when the camera rolls. Like, tell me about your kid. Tell me about the Raptors. Tell me about find a touch point with them, because once they realize that you're a teammate, then an interview turns into a beautiful Tango and you're in lockstep. But sometimes not everybody feels comfortable in front of the camera. And you can be an adversary sometimes because you might create a moment of embarrassment for them, or you might catch them in a question that they're not ready to answer. And listen, I'm Super comfortable doing this kind of stuff. And I can react if I don't like a question from you, for instance. But when people aren't camera ready and they just don't have either that media training or that level of comfort, they have their backup. And it's my job to disarm them. And that it's those moments when they're most disarmed and being most honest that create beautiful cinematic or narrative moments. Yeah. It's also there's the hinterance, if you will, of the technology. Like, even if you can get somebody there, it's like, yeah, but there's still this camera, like, right over my shoulder or a microphone in the way. And the more that that almost just fades to the background where you're just kind of looking eye to eye and having a conversation, like, don't mind all this crew and lighting and everything else that's happening. Let's just have a chat. You mentioned a few kind of questions. Are there for new producers that are in that capacity of being the interviewer? Are there some fallback questions you're like, oh, I always open with this. Maybe it is kids and family or just drive in today and you find your way, find the location. Well, anything like that that you find is kind of a good opener. I think from an opener standpoint, you don't talk about anything to do with the interview, and you also share information about yourself. Right. So if there's an opening question, you just start to drop some Easter eggs about what you're interested in, and then you wait to see what the person on camera picks up on. Because if you talk Raptors, there are a lot of Toronto Raptor fans. I'm from Toronto, so I should practice that. Yeah, it's a basketball team for those who might not know. You talk about the things that are interesting to you, and then you wait to see what they engage on, and then you double down on them because you can tell you've got their attention and you've tapped into something that they're passionate or very interested in. And then they'll open up to you. And if you're mid interview, what's really important, what I find really effective, especially for stiff interviews, like people aren't comfortable, is you wait until you see their eyes light up about something, and then you go down that rabbit hole. And the questions you're asking might not be relevant to the subject matter, but that's an opportunity for them to warm up to you. I don't remember the old Family Circus cartoons where it's kind of like a really long way to get back to the beginning. But then if they become comfortable, you can then double back to questions that you don't think they gave you all that well, but now they're in a flow state and now we're jamming. And so as a producer or a director, like, whatever capacity you're in, it's your responsibility and opportunity to find those moments where there's a sparkle in their eye and then hit them, metaphorically speaking, just need to be really perceptive and attentive. And that's a really good way to disarm people. Now, if that means you got to spend on five minutes on content which is not relevant to the subject matter, so be it because a good interview starts with a rapport and good rapport between you and the subject. I love this. For those the uninitiated out there, how would you delineate the roles of director and producer? Yeah. Well, Firstly, I think that on many small projects, the producer and the director are going to be the same person simply because money if you're starting out. But the producer's responsibility is to guide the process from inception of the idea all the way to the finished product being delivered. Here is your video compressed for YouTube or LinkedIn or whatever. So the producer is the client's point of contact across the entire project, where the director's responsibility is to sit down with the talent on set. If it's an interview in an interview format with actors scripted and just direct the talent, extract the content from the talent so that you can harm the editor with the best content to make the edit. Now, again, depending on the budget, the producer might also be the director might also be the editor. And that's okay because that's actually your opportunity to thread a needle throughout the entire project. If you're a producer and you're doing interview or you're doing sports or whatever, you can find a director who has a really refined skill set for that specific type of content. They're worth their weight and goals. It's worth paying them because they're going to be able to ask questions or direct scenes in a way that you just don't understand, because you don't understand. Scale up technology companies. Right. It's like there's a special skill set required to speak to a technology company who's scaling versus a technology company who's just starting up and working out of a basement. Right. So finding a director with an area of expertise that can make your content more authentic, sometimes it's worth paying for. Yeah. I love this because I think a director does have to have a baseline level of knowledge, probably, I would imagine, about a variety of subjects, but minimally to brush up, bone up, if you will, on the client, their industry, their company ahead of time. And almost like imagining the two to three questions to be asked in that interview ahead of time to kind of know where the direction is going. I would imagine it makes not only the interview flow a lot better, but even the editing, the job of editing a lot smoother as well, too, if, you know, kind of directionally where the conversation is going to go. Totally. I mean, a good director will do their research, right? Good director is not coming to scent. So what are we doing today? They understand the assignment, and so they need to prepare themselves for the scenes they're in or scenes they're directing. Let's talk about the relationship between the producer and the talent as well, too. We kind of talked about the director in talent, but the producer and talent. How would you characterize that relationship either kind of day of shooting or recording if it's voice talent in a booth, and how would you like to see what are you looking to receive from the well, let's just start with that. How would you characterize the relationship between kind of the producer and the talent talent, be they voice or performers or models or whatever they are? It's going to be a bold statement, but I'm just going to say it because I don't think it's fully true, but I think it's at least always partially true. Performers are insecure. They're creative people. The quality of their performance is subjective, and it can be really difficult to be confident about what they are doing about their takes. Performers will always look to a director after a take and look for approval. Did you what do you want me to change the audition room? That's a freaking stressful place for an actor actress to be. And so I think you need your job as a producer is to make talent feel supported and to let them know that they are here because I want you right? I want what you're good at, and I want what you saw in the audition room. And when performers feel like they're there, actors feel like they're there because they're special. You get that on screen or you get that on the microphone. But if it's kind of like I've had actors who come on set and I try to treat them well and ask them about their day and all that, and they're like, oh, my God, we don't get treated like this normally. I believe when talent feels supported and I want them to be there, it's palpable in their performance. And so make the problem, find a way to solve the problem outside of the room. Never let a bomb go off on set. Always find a way to diffuse, and you are fully allowed to say, hey, there's nothing I can do about this right now, but I'm going to take this up with the appropriate people. So figure out a way to resolve the situation in a way that doesn't cause a scene. And that's the best thing you can do because if your crew or anybody else looks like it's out of control, all is going to break loose. So sometimes you maintain control over a situation by punting the problem, but addressing it with the individuals in a way that makes sure that they feel heard and supported. I think that was so important that it's out of the room as well, too, which a line that I was kind of taught growing up was, hey, can I just have a word with you? Let's just step outside. And just by saying, can I have a word? You're not implying anything or let's just get a breather. Do you want to come get a breather with me? It's almost like you use the word ally. You're walking alongside them in obviously a stressful situation. So I thought that was super helpful. We've got some great advice there, but maybe close off with some advice as well, too. There are probably other producers out there looking to create a name for themselves speaking. Are there other skills that maybe could be hard skills or some other soft skills that we've been talking about? But how can new producers improve? A skill may be one that you feel like, man, I wish I learned this earlier on. Again, the range I'll leave it to you to pretty open ended there. So if we're talking about producers, your job fundamentally is to understand every Department as deeply as possible, because you never know on any given project which Department is this fire going to be in? Is this a financial issue? Is this a creative issue? Is this the editor saying something's not possible, but I know it's possible because I used to be an editor. Right. Your job is to understand the Department so that the outcome that you're looking for does not rely exclusively on someone else's point of view. Right. Your job is to understand all the departments so you can intake all the information and then make a decision. So producers, I would encourage you to edit. I would encourage you to ask the DP questions. Do not try to take something away from every project that levels up your expertise in each technical Department, camera, color, sound, all of it, so that you're just leveled up in that respect. And also know how much things cost because as a producer, you're going to get random requests running you. Oh, I need to produce 30 seconds of animation. Know how much that costs, because the difference between you getting the job and not literally might be your ability to get back to them in 24 hours. Yeah. So again, that deep knowledge and understanding of the different departments and the associated costs will help you speak more knowledgeably about what the process looks like. So huge nugget there. Learn every time you're on the job. And I'm over a decade in I'm still a student because the times are always changing. Oh, yeah, we're definitely all students. And that's one of the reasons why I enjoy this show so much is being able to speak with leaders and experts in other fields other than voiceover, but also unpacking what the various roles are. And someone new into the industry as well, too, or someone who season who might be looking for a change of career, maybe looking for another opportunity. Still in the creative space. I think this has been tremendously helpful today. John, can you just maybe let us know where people can maybe follow your work? What's the best place to see what you've been up to lately? Sure. Our handles are Corbin Visual across the board. Instagram, LinkedIn, your website always Corbin Visual. If we're on the platform, we create pretty platform specific content so you'll get different things on TikTok than you will Instagram and website. So we try to be intentional in all the platforms. Hopefully you get a different taste of it depending on where you interact with us. Well, I think that's a great words to leave on and encourage people to go check out each of those platforms which we'll link to of course, in the show notes. Well fantastic. Thanks for joining me today, John. Until next time, this has been David Ciccarelli, the CEO and founder of voices and you've been listening to voice branding. Thanks everyone. Bye.