Designing Experiences in the Age of the Customer

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Hi there and welcome to another episode of Sound Stories, an inspirational podcast for creative professionals and storytellers who want to improve their lives at home and at work. I’m Stephanie Ciccarelli, your host and co-founder of voices.com.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

We’re living the age of the customer where endless choice for products and services prevails. So how do you ensure that your audience doesn’t tab away from your content? Today in the studio, we have Jonathan Kochis, he’s the founder of UX research and design firm Res.im. He’s going to explain how understanding the customer journey can help us to unlock powerful stories that your customers both want and need. So welcome to the show, Jonathan.

Jonathan Kochis:

Thanks very much for having me.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

All right. So I thought we would start off with the basics. So UX and UI kind of terms that people have heard, maybe not completely understood. I put myself in that camp for UX for a little while. So if you could, could you please just let us know what the field of user experience design is and how that intersects with marketing and communications?

Jonathan Kochis:

Yes, sure. And I think it’s a good distinction to make because there’s a lot of confusion about what UX is. If you want to think about it in the simplest terms, think of UX as the way it feels to use something. So if that’s something is a website or an application or any experience, really UX is the way it feels for a human being to interact with something.

Jonathan Kochis:

So what often happens though, is that UX just gets associated with UI or user interface or the way something looks. And there’s nothing else that’s taken into consideration along with that. So it’s really, it’s about feelings, it’s about emotions. And it starts before you use something and it happens while you’re using something and then afterwards, too.

Jonathan Kochis:

So if you think about using any website, for example, I don’t want to pick on any specific industries, but if you have to use a website before you use it, you might be thinking, “Oh, I’m not looking forward to this experience. I don’t want to log in and do this task that I know I have to do.” And then when you’re in there, you’re frustrated about how something is going. And then afterwards, you remember how that feels, too. And then that affects the next time that you’re supposed to use it.

Jonathan Kochis:

So this experience is really a continuum that isn’t just limited to while I’m doing it, it’s before and it’s after as well. So I think if we’re able to think about user experience as an emotional outcome, as opposed to something concrete that we can see and interact with, then it sets the stage for understanding it much better.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

I like what you said, Jonathan, about how user experience is not limited to say the web, on a website. I have a memory of being in Paris and going to Pompidou to one of the museums there and all the amazing different art and inventions that you really do in that space. And they had an exhibit on usability in a certain way. And so like user experience is as basic as picking up a spoon or a pen.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

It’s how it feels in your hand, how much it weighs. Just the contour, the look of it. Maybe even the components that it’s made out of. That all does go together. And it helps us to have an experience and we may really like that experience, or we may really not. So what can we do to help make a better experience for someone when they’re using a website?

Jonathan Kochis:

Yeah. So websites specifically, and this, I guess this goes for anything. You have to understand the task that the customer or the user or the human being is trying to do. There’s a lot of good examples in the physical world of doors that are difficult to use. How many times have you encountered a door and you don’t know if you’re supposed to push or pull or wait for it to open automatically? There are cues on the door that might tell you to do certain things. And maybe there’s a cue that tells you to push or pull or locking mechanisms on doors are another example in the physical world.

Jonathan Kochis:

When you talk about the way you expect to use something, that’s called a mental model. So I have a mental model of locking a door. It’s turning the deadbolt from left to right, but now I’m seeing doors where I have to turn it the opposite way to make the lock happen and that confuses me. It goes against the mental model that I have. But if we just focus on that simple task of I need to get through a door or I need to open a door, it’s about making that as simple as possible without putting anything in the way.

Jonathan Kochis:

So when we talk about a website or any digital product, we need to have a solid understanding of what is the human being attempting to do with this piece of software or this website? So in order to do that, you have to understand who your customer is. It’s critically important to start with that and to ask questions and ask them very directly. There’s no secret sauce for this kind of research. It’s “Hey, you as a customer, what tasks are you trying to perform?” So if it’s a banking website, there are certain tasks that will be taught for almost everybody.

Jonathan Kochis:

And by understanding what those top tasks are, as they’re called, we can design an experience that allows somebody to perform those top tasks in a way that is fast and is efficient and makes somebody feel like they’ve accomplished something at the end of it. So we really have to pay attention to what those tasks are at the beginning and then design for the ease of performance along the way.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

I like what you said about the standardization of how we are using different platforms, be it a banking website and we have certain behaviors that we just know, “Okay, this tab should be here because I expect it to be there.” But that said, obviously we’re not all using a banking all the time, and you’re certainly not always working on those.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

So when we know that people have preexisting mental models for the kind of activities and behaviors that they do what they expect. How is it that we can then take that knowledge of the reality that people do come with these already and then use that knowledge to help to build the customer journey?

Jonathan Kochis:

Yeah. So the mental model that we have for where a tab should be, what things should be called, how things should be labeled. Those are smaller task-driven things in the customer journey. I guess solving those problems is, is relatively easy and sticking to understanding somebody’s mental model. Isn’t that complex, but what is, is understanding the context within which they are performing those activities or those actions.

Jonathan Kochis:

So if you want to think about it in a financial perspective, understanding how and why what’s triggered somebody to log in and perform whatever task it is? Those triggers could be very happy as in, I have a sum of money that I need to do something with and I need to move it around, and this is a good thing. Or I have to log in and I have to pay a bill that I’m not looking forward to do, or I have to transfer money out of my account instead of managing the money that’s coming in.

Jonathan Kochis:

And so in order to design for that, and we have to understand those triggers and those motivations, why somebody is starting, what they’re trying to perform while they’re in there. Knowing that it could be any number of emotions behind it, and then what the outcome is, and then what the steps are beyond that as well.

Jonathan Kochis:

And from a storytelling perspective, I think that brands and businesses, as much as it’s important for them to tell their own story, I think the real value is understanding how they can be part of their customers’ story. Although customers probably don’t realize that they have a story, they’re going through certain steps all the time, and those steps accumulate to create their story.

Jonathan Kochis:

So if a brand can weave itself into that story in a way that it doesn’t feel like it’s forcing itself into a story, in a way that makes the steps in a process or a journey or a story better regardless of whether that’s a positive story or one that’s maybe something that somebody is not looking forward to. I think the storytelling approach from a UX perspective has to be more about how do we as a business fit into somebody’s story? How do we make their story better in some way?

Jonathan Kochis:

And that starts with understanding the customer, not only from that task and mental model perspective, but also from what is motivating this action or this interaction, and what is triggering that to then happens. If you understand that, then I think figuring out the rest that’s in the middle is a little bit easier and then not forgetting about what happens afterwards.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

That’s wonderful. So just so I can recap for everybody on this. We’re really trying to help to build the customer’s experience using our website, but adapting to what it is that they want to do, because they have goals. There’s a story that they’re bringing to this, right? So is there an example that you could give us of maybe a customer you’ve worked with where you’ve helped to map out that customer journey for them?

Jonathan Kochis:

Yes, absolutely. So we do a lot of work in postsecondary colleges and universities. They are, I don’t want to say notorious, but I’ll say it for having large websites and it’s not a problem that is unique to only a few. It’s something that happens when any big organization has different internal stakeholders with different things to say, websites just become large and challenging. And so what our job is in that context is to usually say, “Who are the most important people?” Which is a very difficult thing to do, but there always are priorities.

Jonathan Kochis:

And so we like to get from a business perspective, what those priorities are, who those important audiences are, and then speak with them directly and say, “What are you expecting to find and do on this college website or this university website or any large website or any business really?”

Jonathan Kochis:

And we get the answers to those questions and then that starts to prioritize content. That starts to prioritize features that are there while deprioritizing a number of things as well. So making a process streamlined and removing steps that aren’t necessary removing content that may get in the way that may hinder an experience. And it starts with the focus and the only way to understand that is to do a mix of research, both qualitative and quantitative.

Jonathan Kochis:

So we can start with a large amount of data through something like analytics or any other source that’s accumulating a lot of data, but isn’t really telling us why things are happening. So analytics will tell you what’s going on, but you don’t know why that’s going on. And so we can start with that kind of larger data, generate hypothesis about what’s happening and then talk to our customer in this case, a prospective student in most cases and understand why do traffic patterns look like this?

Jonathan Kochis:

Why are this many people going here and then dropping off or whatever we’re seeing? And that allows us to start to shape how we should design the kind of content that should be there, and probably just as important what shouldn’t be there. And we usually end up with an experience especially for a college or university that is, I want to find information about a program to see if what I want to take is available maybe from a specific perspective or a broader perspective. How much does that cost? How long will I go to the school for? How do I apply? Am I able to even apply based on my credentials?

Jonathan Kochis:

And those really seemingly basic questions that can often get lost. And this is true in almost any business. And one of the triggers of the problems that has caused that is that marketing’s job is almost always, what should we say? We have something to say, what should we say, instead of what does the customer really want to hear? What are they looking for instead of what do we want to say?

Jonathan Kochis:

And when you flip that around and start to understand things from the customers’ perspective, your marketing can become more effective because you’re actually solving problems for people and the result is a happier customer,

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Right. So in the case of what you just said of say a university or college website, their main audience, you would think from a capitalist point of view would be the students who are going to pay to attend. They’re recruiting, right? They’re not looking to maybe bring new faculty on as a result of their beautiful websites. They’re also not necessarily trying to make that a primary means to talk to their alumni, but what they’re trying to do is to get money in the door, get more students in, have them applying to these programs.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

And as a student or the parent of a student is often the case, then you want to be able to find those answers really easily. You want to know what programs are you want to know when this all starts. When do I drop my kid off? What are the residences like? Right? And all of this does help to tell the story, but I love how you said about using the data, because the data, you can look at it from an analytic standpoint, but you also have another way of looking at it.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

And if I were to ask you about just what maybe some of those results might be that a brand could see from having done this research, what would they be and how would they even know how to act on those results?

Jonathan Kochis:

Well, that’s a good question. And it’s important to understand what the business results are of all of this. Otherwise, UX doesn’t really matter. Nothing matters unless there is some positive business outcome to it. And I think when we’re practicing UX, I think what we’re trying to do at the end is to have a happy, satisfied, either prospective customer or customer. And when you go to the lengths to make your customers or prospective customers happy, they are more likely to sign up or buy or tell their friends or share your content, or whatever might result in a conversion for you.

Jonathan Kochis:

Maybe it’s to sign up to a newsletter or something as micro as that. And then the business results are obviously the revenue that’s generated through those conversions or through those actions, but the cause of it isn’t the great message that we have. It’s the experience that we provide. It’s the way it’s felt so far to interact with this business that I have not yet given any money to, but man, does it ever feel good up until that point. And I can’t wait to sign up or to take whatever positive action that may be.

Jonathan Kochis:

And if you’re able to continue to do that, you can generate repeat business from your customer and they have a longer lifetime value and they tell more people as they have that longer lifetime value, they become a fan and an advocate. Because they’re having a really positive experience with you online and that extends offline as well like customer service channels through phone or any other communication channel has to be great as well. And that sometimes is overlooked when we’re talking just about front-facing websites or applications.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

So user interface and user design, I think both of them have to be sticky to a degree, right? Because you want, as you said, repeat business from people. You want them to feel comfortable coming back again and again, and hopefully to accomplish their goals and with what we do at voices.com, very sticky for certain reasons because the talent wants to keep auditioning for jobs and that is something that keeps them coming back, all of these postings.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Now for other websites, I mean, you might have other goals. It really just depends on what that user is looking for and how you can use your design and the ways that you’ve kind of tailor that experience to them in the best possible way to ensure they do keep coming back.

Jonathan Kochis:

Mm-hmm. Yep. That’s exactly right. And so it’s that part of the customer journey that you have to understand very well, too. It’s not only the customer journey that ends at a first transaction for example, that journey continues on and on and on ideally for a lifetime or for as long as that customer needs that kind of service so that they’re not seeking an alternative or they haven’t moved on with the need still intact.

Jonathan Kochis:

So it can’t stop at we got them in the door. It has to continue on to now that they are a customer, what we need to do that same kind of research to understand, “Okay, as a customer now, what are you trying to achieve?” Can we observe you as you use this website or this application?

Jonathan Kochis:

Because you have a better relationship presumably with your customers and you have the ability to watch them through usability testing or other means, use what you’ve built and to make sure that it aligns with what they’re trying to do.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

So Jonathan, customer journey is also kind of an ambiguous sort of idea. I know we’ve talked about user interface and user design, but this whole concept of the customer being on a journey. It’s one way to think of it as a story and we know that this is the beginning and this happens, and then they have to do whatever.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

But in a real life, I’m a customer, I need to do something sort of way. What does that mean? What is a customer’s journey? And after that, I’d love it if you could just paint us a picture of one of your own experiences where you’ve gone through the very same steps yourself.

Jonathan Kochis:

Yes, absolutely. And a customer journey is somewhat difficult to define because as customers, we don’t think of ourselves as going through a journey or being on a journey. We’re we’re living our lives and we’re doing certain things in our lives and we don’t necessarily realize or think that we’re on a journey, but we are and we’re on several of them at any given time. And so as a customer, that journey is everything that happens before, during, and after an interaction or a relationship with a business in this case.

Jonathan Kochis:

And there are many different cases where a customer journey exists, but it’s all of the steps and all of the processes and things that you might go through as you’re buying something, for example and then afterwards. It’s hard to define exactly what those steps are because they’re different for every scenario and almost every person.

Jonathan Kochis:

So to help illustrate that, I can tell a story of a journey that I went through relatively simple journey. I love the outdoors. I love to camp. And with that comes a ton of gear. Oftentimes it’s expensive gear, but it’s fun to buy and it’s great to have, and it can make a real difference between an enjoyable camping trip and one that was maybe not so enjoyable.

Jonathan Kochis:

So on a camping trip like this, we’re often far away, we are relying on what we can carry on our backs or in a canoe. And that means that we can’t always bring larger gear along with us. So sometimes it makes more sense to rely on what’s there for you, which is the ability to create fire and to cook on that. But there are so many reasons why, why that doesn’t always work. If we are spending too much time fishing prior to setting up camp, or if we’ve decided to go for a long hike to explore the area and see what’s around us.

Jonathan Kochis:

And maybe to gather firewood, we can run into scenarios where there’s not enough time to build a fire, to get the coals, to prepare something to cook on. And on top of that, challenges with weather, whether it’s rain or wind has a number of times resulted in a cooking experience that’s not so good.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Yeah. It doesn’t sound like a very good experience so far actually, Jonathan.

Jonathan Kochis:

Usually, these camping trips are a lot. I don’t want to make them sound like they’re not.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

So on this particular trip, let’s say your stove has just completely broken beforehand and now you don’t want to face those things. You don’t want to have the problem of, “Oh no, we’re going to have to get kindling and someone’s got to shield this and we can’t pour taj with this monstrous stove on our back.” So what do you do? What’s your next step?

Jonathan Kochis:

Well, that’s a trigger and that’s realizing that we can’t do this or it’s not going to work. So in that instant, you have to deal with it and make the best of the situation that you can, whether that’s shielding the fire or whether that’s having a smaller fire. But that trigger that happens is next time, I’m not going to have to deal with this. Next time, I’m going to have maybe a small portable stove that’s fuel-efficient.

Jonathan Kochis:

So the trigger is an event that has happened and whatever the journey is for whomever the customer is, there’s always a trigger there that that causes some sort of action. And in the camping scenario, maybe it’s not that you’re going to go camping right away next weekend. But you are at some point and you need them to act on the trigger before you go again, so that you don’t run into that scenario again.

Jonathan Kochis:

So for me, it’s I know that I need to buy something and that’s where my journey or my interaction with the business starts. So as soon as I get home, I am either going on my phone or more likely for an involved research session like that I’m on a laptop or desktop. Starting first by using a simple search through Google, to find examples of the stove that I might be looking for.

Jonathan Kochis:

If I don’t have a brand in mind, or if I don’t have a particular type in mind, I’m going to do some research first. In the research that we have done in customer journeys, when somebody is going to sit down and do research like that, we understand the kind of devices they’re likely to use. It’s not a session where you sit on your phone and use it because that’s difficult.

Jonathan Kochis:

And the same is true for any purchase that is pretty involved. So in that step of the journey, we start to understand what devices are coming into play and when they might be used. So I’m doing my research and then if I’ve settled on a model, I need to find a place to buy that.

Jonathan Kochis:

I need to understand if it’s something that I want to buy online or if it’s something that I want to look at first in the case of a stove, something that’s tactile, something that I have to carry. I may want to go into a store and look at that item first. And then maybe while I’m in the store, part of my journey is comparing the price I see on the shelf to the price I can find on my phone.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Oh my gosh. I just have to put this in here because I know that we mentioned this earlier, but tabbing away. How close to tabbing away are people? That you’re literally, you’re walking in aisle. You’re looking at here’s this model of stove. Here’s that one or you’re on the web. That is dangerous territory for any company that wants to keep that journey going. How do they do it?

Jonathan Kochis:

They have to understand and anticipate the next steps in the journey or the needs at any part in the journey. If they know that I really want to and I’m browsing on the web and I really want to understand how much something weighs or how well it fits into a pack, perhaps they can augment that part of my journey with content that really makes me understand that.

Jonathan Kochis:

So a video of somebody putting it into a pack that I can actually see and understand, or somebody holding it and comparing it to something else that I might understand how much the other thing weighs, because it’s something I’m familiar with a can of soup or something like that. And comparing how much the two weigh in comparison to each other might prevent me from taking a step in my journey that moves me away from that particular website, if that’s where I’m looking.

Jonathan Kochis:

So if I want to go into a store, is there a way for that online experience to keep me there, to give me the information that they know I need? Because they have asked me or they have done their research and asked people like me about what is important when I’m making a decision like this. And so if they’re able to do that, my journey will continue through selecting that product on whatever website it is making that purchase.

Jonathan Kochis:

But then what is the interaction like after that? What kind of communication is there with me leading up to my receipt of an order? How fast does the order get to me? What does the packaging look like when I open it? Is there anything inside the package that helps me on my journey to use it? And then what is it like for me when I pack that and when I take that camping.

Jonathan Kochis:

Because if I have a bad experience with that product, it’s not just the product that I’m reflecting on. It’s where I bought it from, because I maybe can’t make a disconnect between those two. They could be very similar for me, depending on how I’m thinking about it. And my journey will continue in the case of a stove. Every time I need to refill. Every time I need to buy fuel. Every time I use it, it needs to work in the wind. So it’s something that just continues and goes on and on and on and maybe there’s warranty involved in that.

Jonathan Kochis:

What is it like for me to call customer service? What kind of questions might I ask? What are the common problems that come up? Can those be answered efficiently, either through phone or chat or through content that I might find online? So when you think of it as not just when somebody gets to your website and then when they leave, you have to consider all of the steps before and all the steps after to have that complete journey.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

It’s like aftercare in a sense, right?

Jonathan Kochis:

It is.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

You lead them in, they’re interested. They want to maybe get your product. They decide that they do want to buy it and then all of a sudden they’ve got it. So how do you support those people afterwards? And what you said is absolutely critical because if you did buy a stove and I love this analogy, because I can just see. I’m painting the picture in my head of what this all looks like. But you’ve got the stove and you have to fuel it somehow.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

And so you have to go back to the trough sometime to go and get whatever it might be to, I don’t know what it is. Maybe another accessory that goes with it or more fuel. But customers, you want to have them forever. You don’t want to just say one and done. It’s a relationship just like anything else.

Jonathan Kochis:

It is a relationship and relationships are always better when you understand where the other person is coming from. And that’s where the idea of empathy really comes into design, which is a really hot word at the moment. When we’re talking about design is to be, is to be empathetic. And it’s not putting yourself into somebody else’s shoes because that’s impossible to do. You can’t say, “If it were me, I would do this.” That’s very, very hard to do, but it’s almost the first thing that people do because it feels like the right thing to do.

Jonathan Kochis:

It feels like by saying that I am thinking of the other person and I’ll be able to design something that works for them. But empathy is about listening, is about understanding, is about appreciating that somebody is open enough to tell you the things that they are going through and being there in a supportive role to do that.

Jonathan Kochis:

And that supportive role can be design. That can be the things that we see and interact with without saying, “If it were me, I would do this.” Let’s move on. That’s not empathetic enough. But understanding is probably the key, the most important thing to a relationship like that.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

So it’s creating a safe place where you can meet your customer where they are.

Jonathan Kochis:

Mm-hmm. That’s exactly right.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Awesome. We’ve talked a bit today about how interacting with our audience is mainly happening right now through screens, but that may be changing soon. So how could something that is ultimately created to make progress or for good? How could that actually do something disruptive and destructive perhaps?

Jonathan Kochis:

If it causes steps in the journey to be more difficult than they need to be. And we see that with technology and the adoption of it before there is a real identifiable way in which it can provide value. Using something in a customer journey because it’s new is not a reason to use it. There is a lot of talk about chatbots at the moment.

Jonathan Kochis:

So it’s artificial intelligence and it’s about asking questions and getting answers by chatting with a computer through any number of different ways. And it’s very popular for us to text each other, for us to message each other. As human beings, it’s easy for us to do that. But that doesn’t mean that it’s easy or desirable for us to do that with a business or a service, or to find out what the weather is going to be like for example.

Jonathan Kochis:

Is it just as easy and fast for me to open the weather app on my phone in one tap and see what it’s like currently, and will be like for the next 24 hours? Or do I need to go and open a chat application and type something that says, “What is the weather going to be like tomorrow or is it going to rain tomorrow?”

Jonathan Kochis:

So it’s solving a problem that doesn’t really exist and it’s been adopted because it’s new and it’s a way that we as humans interact with each other. And it’s not to say that chatbots don’t have a place or artificial intelligence doesn’t because it certainly does. But it’s about matching that with the steps in the journey. It’s about understanding the motivations, the triggers, and then solving a problem.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

So if someone were to insert this technology, artificial intelligence or otherwise into a process where it doesn’t feel organic as a human being to encounter this right now. It could just throw someone off that customer journey. They could tab away. They could be like, “You know what? That doesn’t feel good. I don’t like this experience. This is not what I was looking for.”

Jonathan Kochis:

Exactly. And we can tell as human beings, we can tell when something doesn’t feel right. We know that this isn’t the way I would like to be interacting. And whether that artificial intelligence is through chat or whether that’s through voice, which is the next big thing, it’s important to understand where it’s valuable in the customer journey. If it’s valuable, if it’s even going to be used and with voice, the big challenge is that it’s UX without UI.

Jonathan Kochis:

There’s no interface. There’s nothing to interact with. There’s no screen. With chat, there’s still a screen. Some of those design principles still apply, but with voice that doesn’t exist. So how do we create these experiences and ultimately design for them with language without art and copy? It’s just words that are there. And not just words, but intelligent responses and conversation beyond just one word replies or something less advanced like that.

Jonathan Kochis:

And so to understand, if you were to say, “Well, I think we need a voice interaction in some way or we need a voice artificial intelligence in what we’re doing.” The research is a little more difficult. You can’t do usability testing, for example, as easily as you can with a screen. So what do you turn to? You start to listen maybe to your customer service interactions through voice and understand the questions that people are asking.

Jonathan Kochis:

Understand how a conversation is usually ended. What kind of words signal success or what kind of words signal frustration, or lead to another question? And you have to build the intelligence that way, but first making sure that it fits in the journey and ultimately solves a problem.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Well, we’ve got a lot of voices out there now and a lot of technology. Alexa, of course, there’s Siri, there’s Google Home. There’s all kinds of different voices and this’ll be something that we’ll be keeping our eyes on and our ears on in the future.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

So I want to thank you so much, Jonathan, for coming in today. And also just to let you have a little bit of time here to share about how someone could get in touch with you, if they’d like to know more about what we talked about today.

Jonathan Kochis:

Absolutely. And thank you for having me. It was my pleasure to be here. I love to discuss this sort of thing. And I think it’s interesting because it’s changing so fast and very exciting thing to be part of. If anybody’s interested in more about what we do and how we can help in the kind of unique scenarios where we provide value because that’s important, the best way is to check us out online.

Jonathan Kochis:

Our website is res.im. So R-E-S dot I-M. And there’s lots of information about how we can help. And just as importantly, the team members that are going to be doing that. And it’s easy to get in touch with us from there.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Thank you for tuning in. And if you haven’t already done so I’d, like to invite you to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, as well as give us a rating. We love hearing from you and gathering your feedback.

Stephanie Ciccarelli:

Once again, I’m your host, Stephanie Ciccarelli and I hope you can join us for our next Sound Stories Podcast.