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Bruce Kronenberg: Hello. As part of an initiative to contribute marking the insights to an open discourse on the triumphs and trials of a rapidly changing industry, Voices has brought together the various perspectives of the modern voice over industry. For this first panel our topic of conversation will be industry standard rates, the various definitions of that, how it impacts the voice over business for different types of talent and generally what that means to you. The intention of the panel is to share perspectives for the greater benefit of all in our industry. Understand that there are various views about the rates in the industry and we are all here to simply have a conversation about the evolution and practices of rate setting in the industry all from our unique perspectives. We are not going to define what the rate should be. Please note that. This inaugural session features experts representative of every corner of the voice over industry and focuses on the topic of rates.
My name is Bruce Kronenberg. I’m the moderator. I’ve been in the voice over industry for 25 years, mostly as talent and now as a coach and instructor and a co-owner of Abacus Entertainment here in New York City. The lineup of experts for this specific discussion include Kabir Singh. Kabir is the voice of millennials, cool and urban, a college sound. Kabir is a professional voice actor and poet from Los Angeles, California, currently the voice of T-Mobile IVR and Credit Karma. Toby Ricketts, originally from the
U.K. Voice over artist Toby is currently residing in New Zealand and has over 24 years combined experience in the U.K. and New Zealand in voice work and voice over recording. His clients include Microsoft, Audi, Proctor & Gamble, IKEA and McDonald’s.
Toby Ricketts: Thank you. Joining you from midsummer in New Zealand. Bruce Kronenberg: Naomi Mercer.
Naomi Mercer: Hi.
Bruce Kronenberg: Hello. Naomi has been a working voice over actor for nine years, and has been doing it full time since 2008. Real, hip, droll, but with energy, high energy. Naomi has voice projects for Linux, Intel, Virgin, Guess and ESPN. Kevin McDonald.
Kevin McDonald: Hello.
Bruce Kronenberg: Where is Kevin? Kevin McDonald: I’m here.
Bruce Kronenberg: Kevin. Recently after dabbling in voice work during his 20 years in IT and marketing, Kevin decided to pursue a full time voice over career. He built Fort Silence, his own professional recording studio and began auditioning. Within three days he landed his first job through Voices and realized this idea might actually work. He has continued to get jobs and was awarded his first national TV ad after less than four months in the business. Congratulations.
Kevin McDonald: Thanks. Appreciate it.
Bruce Kronenberg: Carrie Olsen. From the time she first considered voice acting to the time she booked her first national radio campaign was about two months. Since then, Carrie has quit her job to pursue voice work fulltime. In that time she’s done work for Disney, Taco Bell, Bayer, just to name a few.
Carrie Olsen: Hello.
Bruce Kronenberg: Hello. Tommy Griffiths. Tommy. Tommy Griffiths: Hi there.
Bruce Kronenberg: He’s been a voice talent for many years. His SAG-AFTRA card says member since 1981. You do the math. Tommy’s also coached and produced [MOS] for nearly 500 voice artists worldwide. He produces and hosts commercial podcasts and voice tracks radio shows for stations across the U.S. Tommy is also a home recording studio consultant. Guy Michaels.
Guy Michaels: Hi, everyone. Bruce Kronenberg: Hello, Guy.
Guy Michaels: Hi. How you doing?
Bruce Kronenberg: Guy brings over 15 years of VO experience and ten years as the U.K.’s premier demo producer to the panel. Having produced nearly 700 voice reels and worked with every level of voice artist he’s heard it all. Ben Jackson. Ben. Where’s Ben? Right there.
Ben Jackson: Hi, guys.
Bruce Kronenberg: Is vice-president of sales in Voices and has spent the last six years in the middle of thousands of client voice talent opportunities. Working for an
online marketplace, Ben brings a unique perspective as seeing firsthand how companies are pricing their projects and what their goals and expectations are. All this while witnessing the interaction from the voice talent’s end and seeing what pricing challenges and strategies arise through the process. Jim Kennelly.
Jim Kennelly: Hi, everyone. Happy to be here.
Bruce Kronenberg: Hello, Jim. For over 30 years Jim Kennelly, owner of Lotas Productions, has specialized in finding the right voice for creative radio and television campaigns and narrations. Jim has longstanding relationships with the top talent agencies in New York, LA and Chicago, has worked closely with SAG-AFTRA as a union paymaster and signatory and casts and produces voice-overs in his own New York studio every single day. And just for the record, I did one of my first ever voice over jobs in that very studio.
Welcome everyone.
Naomi Mercer: Thanks.
Kabir Singh: Thank you. Kevin McDonald: Thank you.
Bruce Kronenberg: You got it. So the way this is going to work is I’ll pose the questions to kick off the conversation and we’ll move through the discussion together in a thoughtful, respectful way. If you want to say something or engage with a thought or another panelist just speak up. Giving back to the industry with an open and forum conversation about where we all sit in regard to industry standard rates is a great way to start 2016. Now, if you’re sharing your commenting online feel free to tag at Voices or use the hashtag voices of the industry.
Bruce Kronenberg: All right. Shall we begin? I’m going to start on a broad note with my first question. What role do rates play in the voice over industry? For example, have rates impacted the work or projects available or even the demographics or opportunities for success or income? Anybody want to take a stab?
Kevin McDonald: Well, I think that – I mean, I’m pretty new to the industry so as I approach the voice industry now, I have to look and sort of rely on the rates that are posted on sites like Voices or Voice123 or whatever. Without a lot of historical information it would be sort of ludicrous for me to say I think this is what the rate should be. I look and try to find what the trends are and I look and see what other people have posted. So I suppose how that affects rates in the industry and affects jobs, if rates get lower then people are getting paid less but maybe more people are purchasing voice over so perhaps there’s more work. I’m not exactly sure. I’m actually really interested to find
out what the perspective of a lot of other people on the panel is just having done it for so many years.
Bruce Kronenberg: Go ahead, Jim.
Jim Kennelly: Well, I was going to say historically when you look at the SAG-AFTRA model those rates were set by the guild and people had to abide by them. So right away whether it’s a union or non union job you’re going to either include a certain amount of people or knock out a certain amount of people. So that’s a quick way to get right involved in that discussion.
Kabir Singh: Yeah. And I can say that, you know, I myself am pretty new to the industry and I see it as there being old money and new money. And now it seems like the demographics have changed where one, you don’t need to be in a big market. You don’t need to be in New York or you don’t need to be in LA or Chicago. You can literally be anywhere in this country or in this world and start a voice over business. So demographics have changed in that matter, right? And the old money being union and the new money being non union.
That’s the way my mind sees it because I’m new to it. You know, I’m new in the game. I’ve been doing it for four or five years, and I am SAG eligible, but I am non union. And depending on the type of income that a person is looking for whether it’s, you know, off of Voices, play the pay sites as they call it, or if they’re going to union, the path is up to you to choose and now the opportunities are – I see it as technology has just made it open for you. It’s opened it up. It’s made it faster, made it simpler and more volume. That doesn’t take away that, you know, there obviously are discussions about what the fair rate should be and those are separate discussions, but if I see it – just answer this question, I do see it as the opportunities have grown for more people to, you know, start from nothing and build their way up.
Kevin McDonald: I agree. Tommy Griffiths: I agree totally.
Bruce Kronenberg: Sure. Go ahead.
Tommy Griffiths: The question that you posed was how do the rates affect the industry. I think the industry is affecting the rates.
Naomi Mercer: Yes. I agree.
Tommy Griffiths: As you had stated earlier, with all the technology that’s available it’s much cheaper, it’s more accessible, more and more people can do this stuff. It’s just a matter of simple economics, supply and demand model that, you know, is the –
Kabir Singh: – Absolutely.
Tommy Griffiths: – rates are going to come down.
Jim Kennelly: Technology. Technology always affects rates no matter what the industry is. And certainly the advances in technology in the voice over industry are directly affecting rates whether if you’re on the assembly line or going in a play. Rates will come down, but I think we’re going to see a stabilization of the rates now. We’re already starting to see that. And once that stabilization takes place, people make a choice whether they’re going to stay in the industry or not and then there’ll be a shaking out and then we’ll start to see rates go up again.
Naomi Mercer: Very true. I agree.
Bruce Kronenberg: Do you want to say something, Naomi, about that?
Naomi Mercer: Yeah. I also agree that what it’s affected is the demographics and the opportunities and that more people are able to participate in the jobs than before. And also, like let’s be real. It’s a lot easier to crank out a job than it was 12 years ago where you always had to just schedule a session and come in and meet with the engineer and rent the studio time. It’s cheaper and easier to crank out the same job than it used to be. So I think if you approach it like a small business where you’re trying to meet a bottom line you can still end up making the same amount of money.
And then like Jim was saying about how the rates stabilize, once you learn that you can make a certain amount of money at a job and then you have your week full of those jobs, then it’s easy to turn down the lower rate jobs. And those jobs are then for the newcomers that just started last week and they can have those. And I’m not going to complain that those jobs are up there for a really low rate because they’re not for me anymore. They’re for the new guy and then once you’re union the rates are completely set and I have no say in them. There isn’t negotiation so – or there is, but it’s up to – you know, union negotiations are your agent or what have you.
Bruce Kronenberg: That’s a great point.
Naomi Mercer: So I think demographics are – yeah, different demographics are now able to all participate and use them to put, you know, little marks under their belt and work their career up and I think it’s just – it’s even more of a ladder than it always was. Where before it was like you had to start from nothing and somehow get a break to take a giant leap to just be in the industry all of a sudden and now there’s – I saw it as like a – we finally had a defined, clear ladder that you can take because you can’t be desirable to an agent if you don’t have any credits, but how are you going to get those credits? Well, all those little low rate jobs that are up there for new businesses or anything else, I think those are a great way to get to that. So anyway, I digress. I think
it has affected the demographics and the opportunities but kind of in a good way.
Kabir Singh: And that’s an awesome perspective because that’s a positive perspective. Like in everything you do there’s a growth escalation, right? You grow with time. Like I remember doing low rate jobs. I’ve done many low rate jobs, but in honour and respect of the industry. As you get better, as you put more money in, as you climb up this ladder that’s been defined you allow others to climb the ladder with you as you go higher, right? And that’s what –
Bruce Kronenberg: – So in other words you’re saying that, you know, starting with the lower rate jobs is good and eventually you won’t stay with those lower rate jobs. You’ll start to get better paying jobs and other people coming into the industry will take the lower rate jobs and go the same path as you all are saying right now.
Naomi Mercer: Yes. So when I find those up there I don’t find that insulting. I almost see it as a compliment. Like I’m glad I’m not there anymore.
Kabir Singh: And you know, the important thing like that’s a – that’s her lower rate. What is lower rate? Well, that’s a perspective on someone’s life circumstances. You could be working making $7.00 an hour and busting – you know, doing eight, ten hours a day or you could get $100.00 job and feel great that it took you maybe 30 minutes, an hour to do. So lower rate is also a perspective on life circumstances.
Bruce Kronenberg: Someone else is speaking up here. Who else? Someone – yeah, it’s Guy.
Guy Michaels: Yeah. Can I just bring something in? So most of my work is working with a lot of new voice over artists who were wanting to, you know, get up their first foot on the ladder and this question always comes up: How much will I make in my first year? That’s the question that comes up, and it’s obviously an impossible question to answer. And I always put it back to them that well, I personally would expect you to make a loss in your first year. And they always look at me entirely shocked. What do you mean? What do you mean?
Well, you’re starting a business and any business expecting to make profit in the first year, I don’t think that’s the right approach. And what I’m talking about here is voice over artists needing to engage with development and understanding that they need to engage with proper, professional development whether that be of their vocal skill, whether that be sorting out their studio and getting into what I would class as the economical, repeatable process of auditioning and recording. That’s how you keep your hourly rates because no matter – for me 17 years after my first voice over job, no matter I suppose get paid less than I did then if I think about it, it
doesn’t matter because my technical skill is up and therefore my hourly rate stays up because I can churn it out.
Toby Ricketts: I was going to say something about agents as well because, you know, the big difference these days is that you – there’s not threshold for entry, you know. People can sign up to Voices today. They can see the jobs there. They can actually start having a go with real scripts. So now that people can self agent themselves it’s cut a lot of the fat out of the market as well because you can deal effectively direct with, you know, end clients. But also in that effect, you know, you end up doing a lot more auditions.
So I think, you know, when you become – when voicing becomes your fulltime occupation, you’re using a service like Voices, you’re spending a lot of your days doing auditions. It’s a numbers game. So if you want to be successful in it you’ve got put the time in. So effectively, you know, even though the rates are high when you get into that upper end, you’ve worked a lot harder to get there. You’ve put the time in in advance and now you’re getting paid back for all the auditions that you’ve done.
Guy Michaels: But doing those auditions, you know, the positivity of doing those auditions of course is that you’re working on your skills. You’re working on your –
Toby Ricketts: – Absolutely –
Guy Michaels: – you’re working on your site really, you’re improving your site really, you’re practising. You’re improving your technical skills and you’re able to just get them out and okay, you know, your hit rate might not be very high but actually your failure rate – you know, get those jobs, get those auditions out there, get as many as you possibly can.
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