Interview with Youtube Audio Gear Reviewer - The CheapAudioMan
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Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the OBM podcast. I'm Rob Ss and I hope you're doing really well. It's great to have you back here with me on today's show and on this show, you'll be hearing me talking with Randy the cheap audio man. The cheap audio man is a youtube channel that Randy started where he reviews audio equipment. That's not stupidly expensive. So definitely check that out on youtube and you can find him at cheap audio man handle on all the socials. I caught up with him recently and we had a really cool chat talking about speakers and audio gear, but also why he started his youtube channel, the nuances of reviewing audio gear and every I think that entails but also the music that shaped him. So what he listened to when he was growing up, what he listens to now attending live concerts, the impact that a good hi-fi system can make and a whole lot more. So without further ado, here's me talking with Randy the cheap audio. But uh one of the things that I remember was you were talking or you mean you made mention that at some point you had bought a couple of decent hi fi items, like the LS 50 speakers and then the mood by Sim audio app and that, and you were disappointed by them. I, yeah, I don't think they're necessarily bad per se. It's, I expected more, I guess. And I didn't get that when I turned it on and that was kind of pretty much the genesis of the channel is when, you know, I, I expected the angels to sing and they did not. So um at that point, I was like, they put me on like, is it supposed to sound like this? Is it, is there something wrong with me? Am I not, you know, is I hearing the audio file enough to hear these spectacular differences that I'm supposed to hear? And um I just didn't hear it and then I think it was when I compared it directly to um a rece an A VR receiver. So not even a two channel receiver but an A VR receiver that was less expensive and there was, you know, minimal difference between it and uh and what my A VR was. So at that point, I was like, yeah, this is, I, I don't think the emperor has any clothes, so I'm gonna start a channel. That's incredible. So it really came down to that and, and thus began the cheap audio man. That's crazy. Yeah. Well, I mean that I wanted to start a channel prior to that but it was one of those things where a buddy at, at work, he's a younger kid and he's like, you should start a youtube channel because I'd always, like, I always had headphones, I always had gear and, you know, if somebody, if somebody was dumb enough to ask me about audio stuff, I would just like, corner them and just like, talk to them, talk their ear off or, you know, 10, 20 minutes. And this one young kid and when I say young, I think he's like, I don't know, 30. He's like, dude, you should start a youtube channel and I kind of giggled and I was like, yeah, whatever. And then after I got that, that moon by SIM Audio and the LS 50 I was just like, today's the day and I, you know, my first video was shot on a Galaxy cellphone, no external mic. I just turned it around and hit, you know, record a rambling 30 minute video later. And that was the first video I put up and look and look at it now. Right? It's growing and continues, continues. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So I, I do it full time now. So it's the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me. I think, you know, outside of like having my kids and everything. But, you know, from a, from a, uh, a career standpoint, definitely the most incredible thing that's ever happened to me now. I, I don't want to labor the, the uh LS 50 point too long because I can understand very, very easily the amp comparison and the amp disappointment potentially. But having had a pair of the Ls Fis myself and having those really actually change my own listening experience when I hear you. Well, when I heard you mention that that it didn't give you, you know, like you said, the, the angels didn't sing. What, what was it? Do you recall what it was that they were missing for you? Or, or why? And again, just for the record, you're not saying necessarily they were a terrible speaker. Are you? No, no, I, I don't think they, for me at the time, I had a pair of clips RP 600 MS as well as I think a pair of eac unified two point. I can't even remember what I had point being is I had two speakers that were in the $500 category and then the LS 50 which knew that speaker I think was $1200 at the time. And this is the first generation, not the second generation, not the metas. And I think it just in comparison to the other two speakers that were basically half I didn't hear. There's nothing special to me and they didn't have any bass. So I was like, man, this is like, like this is like half a speaker and imaging was good, you know, soundstage was good. You know, it was clean, it was clear, but I just didn't feel like it was dynamic at all. And, you know, in retrospect, maybe I didn't have enough power on them. But that was kind of the point of one of my most popular videos, audio files are full of crap. And then one of the most common comments I got when I criticized the LS 50 was, oh, you don't have the right amp on it. My point was like, if I have to have, like, if your speaker is such a special snowflake that it needs like this specific pairing or specific, if I'm paying $1200 for a pair of speakers, it better sound good, whatever I put them on, you know, and I think that was kind of a pushback on my end from the overall kind of mentality with audio files like, oh, ok. Well, if it doesn't sound good, then it's your AMP. If it, that, that doesn't sound good, then it's your deck. If that doesn't sound good, then it's your source material. And, you know, it's always kind of like you just blame something else because it's really not that good of a product to begin with. Um And I get that the, I get that LS 50 is a popular speaker. It's done a lot of people like it and a lot, there's been a lot of positive reviews on it. My point is go to go to Facebook marketplace go to ebay click or type in CFLS 50 you get a lot of options to buy that speaker. So that tells me that there's a lot of people that don't want that speaker anymore. So, and that's kind of a litmus test for me to see how popular an item really is, is to see what it's doing on the secondary market. If there's nothing on the secondary market, like in Dana prep series two, which is a deck where they're harder to find. That means it's probably a pretty good product if there's a ton of them out there. Yeah, probably a ok product. Yeah, that's interesting to hear you say that. Like, I think you, you're bang on the money about the Ls fifties being power hungry because their, their sensitivity is around the 85 mark and I think they might have even overestimated, might actually close it. Yeah. Yeah, I think they're being generous with that. Right. I think is kind of KFF fudges the numbers a bit with sensitivity and the overall impedance I think, I mean, there's a, a new Record Day, Ron from New Record Day. He does his own measurements and he did the metas and they were grossly overstating their sensitivity. Yeah. So it means you really need to put some juice behind them and I, I know when I had them, I don't have them anymore. I, I mean, I really, really enjoy them. I think for me they were 80 or 90% of the way there with regard, with respect to my own personal taste and the sound that I was after, but like you, they were really missing in the low end. There was practically no base, I think they cut off at about 80 Hertz. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not great. And they needed a lot of power. And I do remember having a, a really small amp from a power perspective and they, they didn't sound great and then I put them behind something, you know, a lot larger with a lot more juice and all of a sudden the sound sign, even the sound signature in my ears changed, the things started coming alive. So, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's probably a very niche product in that sense. Right? Like people look at the price and they think, wow, it looks incredible. But you need to add, you need to add, you know, a grand or more at least, or maybe a couple of grand for some really powerful power power supply. So, yeah. Well, that was, um, I, I never got them to sound good. Now, granted, I didn't give them that big of a chance as soon as they kind of like, as soon as they vexed me, I just, I immediately put them back up on sale and, uh, they sold, I think, fairly quickly, I, I think I lost a little bit of money. Now I bought them used, but it was kind of like an open box. Like the guy that I bought him from, he never really listened to him because he, he got them and then he listened to something else. But they're wonderfully built. They're really good looking. I just didn't like them. I, I think it's, you know, three quarters of a speaker or half a speaker at best and at $1200 you know, it just, it didn't do anything for me. Right. Well, the only thing I'd say is without flogging a dead horse, I'd say power is the thing they need it. Uh Without it, I think it's really hard to enjoy them fully. Uh If you and I would say for anyone listening to this show, um if you're not a base head, uh they might be decent. Uh And in fact, I think from an I, you mentioned this as well from an imaging perspective. They are astonishing and I, I think a lot of people use them as near field monitors a lot and uh this probably serve that, that purpose pretty well. But anyway, that's probably enough about the LS fifties. I, I guess the other, the other thing about, um, your recent videos last two or three that I, that I saw were the audio file. Truths after 41 years of being an audio file and then the don't buy speakers until you watch this video, uh which I thought, which I thought was great. You brought up a few points that I didn't think of initially, you know, when I clicked on it, obviously, budget things like that are, are, are pretty, pretty common considerations. But that sensitivity, you know, how hard to drive, which is what we just spoke about. And then also you posed a really interesting question when you said, think about like what you want them to sound like it almost sounds obvious, like, too obvious to say. But I really wonder how many people sit down when they're looking to buy a pair of speakers and I ask that question. So I thought that was a great point to me. Thanks. Thanks. I appreciate it. I think, I think a lot of people, I think the prevailing thought process is if you spend more money, you're gonna get more music or music, musical enjoyment or there's gonna be something extra like, I mean, if you, you spend $100,000 on a car, chances are it's gonna be a lot better than that $30,000 car as far as maybe horsepower, you know, luxury or whatever it is. But there's not always, you know, a dollar for dollar, you know, linear enjoyment that you get from spending more money in hi-fi. And because it's, it's so much of a, a personal preference, it's like cake like you, I don't know what kind of cake you like. You may like chocolate cake, but you may not like you may not like devil's food cake. It doesn't mean you're wrong. It doesn't mean anybody's wrong. Right? I like, you know, whatever cake I like. But you know, just because you spend a lot of money on a cake doesn't mean for instance, my birthday was last week and my wife loves, thanks, man. I appreciate it. Um, my wife loves these fancy cakes and I don't, I, I just don't like the way they taste. And I was like, please just get me a regular cake from like Target. I don't know if you have Target over there, but from Target with the, with the whipped cream frosting, that's all I want. I want a $10 cake and that's what I want. It doesn't make me wrong. Right. That's, that's just my personal preference. And I think a lot of people they don't know what they don't know. So they get a speaker, they listen to it and they're like, oh, I'm gonna spend more money and get more, more better. I'm gonna get better musical enjoyment. And it's such a, it is, I think food is probably the best analogy because everybody has a different palette and everybody has a different, you know, ear and different predictions when it comes to what they want their music to sound like. And so it's very difficult because there's such a wide variety of products out there that um it's, it's more of personal, personal experience than anything else. Yeah. And there's no accounting for taste, like you say, like, uh, it's like there's no such thing as good or bad music. It just depends on what you, what moves you or, you know, what you, what you like listening to. Um, I think there's some objectively bad speakers. Like I've heard some bad speakers that just, you could just tell that there's no thought put into, you know, like there's some Yamaha three way speakers that were just literally horrible. You know, there's some stuff out there that's not good. But outside of that, I mean, frequency responses, you know, someone like a mid Ford speaker, someone like basi or speaker rolled off then that all comes down to, I think just what people's teeth are. Yeah. And also, I mean, these sorts of audio based conversations or conversations about Hi Fi, I mean, they, they're never ending, right? Because so almost an unlimited amount of factors that affect what people hear, especially when it's not headphone listening, especially when we're talking about like just listening to a pair of speakers in a room already that introduces so many variables that can ruin or improve the sound. So it's uh the deeper you get into the, into the topic, the more you realize how everything plays, its, its, its role, I think. Yeah. Um I'm keen to know what part of music played music specifically not hi-fi G played in your life when you were growing up. Um, I heard about the Grand Grand Funk Railroad cassette. But, yeah, that was actually a single, that was a record. Um, I don't know how to put my finger on it. I mean, I've, I've talked about it in videos but I, I was always, I don't know, I grew up in a small, on a farm in rural Nebraska in, like, a small town. Like, and I think I just wanted to, I didn't wanna be there. I didn't wanna be on a farm. I didn't, I wanted to be in the city somewhere and I watched a ton of movies growing up and I think I associated music maybe with the city freedom. I don't know what it was but I was, I was infatuated with music and rock and roll and the equipment that plays it from, I don't know, as early as I can remember and I don't know why. And then I, you know, I was in, I played drums in, um, you know, elementary school all the way through high school. So I was always, you know, playing the drums, listening to music, teaching myself how to play, you know, certain riffs that I heard. And it's just one of those things. It's kind of like if you like motorcycles the first time you see a motorcycle, you're just like, oh my God. I, I love that. It's beautiful. First time I saw a Walkman I was like, I, I want it and I don't know why I can't really put my finger on it but I, I had no problem, like, sitting in my room for hours on end listening to music at a very early age. You know, it was just something that was innate, I guess. And, you know, I've never, never shaken it. It's always been part of who I am and an escape, I guess. I mean, that's, that's what I'm hearing. II, I can certainly relate to that and I didn't even know it was an escape really. I mean, I just knew, I just knew that I liked it. Me and a buddy. I still, he's still a very good friend to this day. We were the only, we were the two kids that had systems and when I say a system, it means we had a speaker that was, you know, bigger than a lunchbox. So by default, we were always the DJ S at all the dances. So, even pre junior high, we would lug all our gear into, you know, a gymnasium and then we would play the music and, um, it was great and, uh, I don't know, I don't know why I was a gearhead, you know, from a high perspective. But I just was, I don't know, I don't know why. I just like the lights. I liked everything about it. Yeah. And, and now it's, it's become a lifestyle right for you and, and this audio file mania, it's it's kind of, it's become a career for me, which I never would have dreamed of. Yeah, I think it's great. I think, I think now is a better time than ever to get into it because there are so many affordable things out there. And that's another thing when I started doing youtube, I mean, one of it was out of necessity that I talked about affordable gear simply because I was buying everything. Um And the second thing was I, I'm a true believer, you know, I have my own experience. I have a handful of more expensive items, but those are usually vintage. I don't think I have, I've got a pair of mono blocks from **** that I think a pair of those are, I think $1600. I don't have any really expensive stuff though. I guess I have the, well, those are only, I have the Wharf, Dale Linton. I think those are about 1500 bucks a pair, but I don't have a $3000 pair of speakers. But when I saw all the youtubers that I was watching, nobody was talking about the Chinese import stuff. People were saying that, hey, this RP 600 M from clips or this, the eac debut reference is the entry point or the, you know, the ground floor of being an audio phone. And that really rubbed me the wrong way. And I was like, why this could be somebody's endgame speaker and so I made the decision that, you know, I was gonna, it was out of necessity initially, but then it became ok. I'm gonna, this is my flag that I'm gonna wave is you don't have to spend a bunch of money on, on hi-fi gear to enjoy your music. Quite, quite. It could be quite the opposite. Like you could be listening to the gear more than you're listening to the music. And so there was, it wasn't really a tactical thing for me from a channel standpoint, but everybody left it wide open and a lot of folks, I think paint painted themselves into a corner because they took such a hard line stance on what is good that they can't really, if you say, hey, you gotta spend $1000 on a pair of speakers for it to be good. You can't really backtrack on that and then all of a sudden just say, oh, well, wait, you know, these $200 speakers are great too. So it was, um, it was a good fit for me and I was just, I was just lucked out because that's, nobody was really talking about it at the time. Yeah. Or, yeah, that was, that was, I still don't think they talk about that much. Yeah, it sounds like that was the white space at that, at that point in time and maybe still is. But, but, I mean, the Linton's and, and some of the other uh, items as well. So maybe some of the more expensive items, I mean, they're not cheap. They're not by comparison to. Yeah, they're $1500 a pair. Um, yeah, I think though that while that's expensive, I don't think it's beyond the realm of what somebody could, could, you know, save up for. And quite frankly, if somebody, you know, wants to spend 10 grand on a stereo, I'm not gonna begrudge them or say that they're wrong at all. But the stuff that I choose to talk about is on the much more affordable end of the spectrum. So, are you when you're doing what you do on your channel and, and even, you know, as a job now, are you mainly concerned with or interested in finding how good the constant stream of new, high, new affordable hi-fi can get? Well, I mean, I don't, I guess I don't really think about it that way. Right. I guess I want to audition as many things as I can so that other people don't. And if there's something that is just crazy good and it's affordable, then I want to let people know that. But you know, there's so many, especially the Chinese stuff and don't get me wrong. The Chinese stuff can, some of it's really, really good, but there's a ton of stuff out there that I think is being produced that I don't necessarily think that the manufacturer knows why they're doing what they do. I think sometimes they just get lucky and I think that's kind of where I come in. I want to be of value to the audience and I want to entertain and, and inform and if I can do those two things, then the results should take care of themselves and if I can bring enough value to people, um then I don't really, I don't think I need to worry about growing an audience or anything like that. So I see it as number one I kind of think about because I do topical videos and then I do, you know, review videos too. When I do a topical video, I try to think of what do I wish I knew when I was first starting out and it's mostly pragmatic, you know, practical stuff that, that you've mentioned. But I just try to, you know, make, uh, first of all, I try to make as much content as I can but I try to, I can tell, but I also try to be of value. I don't, I don't want to just be making content for the sake of making content. Um And sometimes I forget that sometimes I forget that I need to be bringing value to the audience and some of my videos aren't great. But um at, at the very least if I can make somebody laugh, then I think I've done my job. That's a great, that's a great, it's, I'm happy you said that because I was gonna segue into this, this mix of yes, audio and hi-fi gear with an attitude that is very kind of uh how would I phrase this approachable, right? Like I there's a sense that I get from watching your videos and even the comments, the majority of them anyway, in the like the youtube comments and I presume more of this is on your, on your Patreon uh site uh or Patreon page. People are like really into what you're talking about. The discourse is by and large um positive, good natured. And I think that's probably a reflection of the way that you're presenting yourself and, and the way that you're, you are, you know, on camera, right, with this, with this youtube gig. So I think that's why a lot of people tune in. I know half the time I will tune in on a video of yours. Even if I'm not interested entirely in the item itself. Yeah. So. Right. So that's kind of, it's an interesting mix. Yeah. I don't know why that is like, there's no accounting for it. Let's not break it down here. We'll, we'll spoil the, the secret. So I just try to be me, man. But um I mean, I think, I think this is a by and large, a very solitary hobby that we have and there wasn't any audio files that I knew of growing up now. Granted, we didn't have the internet, like I mean, their internet existed but it wasn't ubiquitous like it is now. And so there, I don't even think we had a hi fi store in the state that I lived in outside of like department stores. But that was considered to be low end. I think that youtube came, I think my channel came around a good time because it was right in the middle of COVID and I think it, this, the subject material as far as affordable stuff was, was good because people don't always have a huge budget. And then for whatever reason, I think just my attitude, me poking fun at a couple of things here and there, um, was a bit refreshing and different from a lot of the channels that are out there. And I'm just lucky. I mean, half this, you know, 75% of this was luck, I think. And then just my idiocy of making videos all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll, I'll fill the other gaps in by saying a lot of hard work, a lot of time and effort spent and all the rest of it. And that always has to be a part of a, you know, a part of a deal. But yeah. No, it's good. II I think your, your stuff's really entertaining. That's why I kind of tuned into it and continue to do so. But I try to cover up with my subject matter ineptitude by being entertaining and making people laugh. I'm like, if I can make enough people laugh then they don't, they won't figure out that I'm an idiot. I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe they'll stay. Oh, it's so funny. Like the intro, the intro, music, I have to say. And you didn't always, if I recall correctly your intro music that da, da da da, that, that stuff has always been pretty much, always been there, or at least for the longest time. But then, yeah, I, I feel like there came a point in time where you added that. Yeah, there's a, there's a heavy metal riff in there now, right? It's the, the contrast between those two is hilarious to me. Yeah. Well, you know where the, the intro music came from? The, the, the first intro that's still there. Like the first half, the intro, music, you know where that came from? No, it came from. OK. So on a, a Microsoft machine, you know, Windows machine, there's a photo app within that photo app is a free editor within that free editor is free music that is on every Windows machine out there right now. And that, that music, I used a lot of that. I used all that music when I was first editing. And so that music actually came from the free version of the Photos app that's on every Windows machine out there, which I thought was even funnier because it's like, it's, that's doubling down so *******, like the low budget, uh you know, vibe of the channel, right. I, I don't, I, I don't know what I was thinking of when I first heard it but it's, it's kind of, it gives me, I dream of genie vibes or something for those of you that are old enough to, I remember that show. But, um, so what about the, what about the ho ho, oh, heavy rock piece? Where did that come from? That's not you on the drums, is it? No, no, no, no. I um I subscribe to a channel on a channel, a website called Epidemic Sound. And if you subscribe to it, then you get like unlimited use of their, their music. Um And so that was a II I found somewhere on there but that, that was kind of what, like, that's another thing about music, right? Is like you gotta listen to certain music to be considered an audio file. It's gotta be recorded perfectly or whatever it is. I grew up in the eighties, man, like, and some of that music was so poorly recorded, but you know what? We didn't care and metal has always been a big part of my musical enjoyment. Um And so I thought, you know what, nobody else is gonna have metal and I like metal so screw it. I'll put metal in the, in my intro. Who, who are some of the bands? I mean, I, I know of Metallica because you, you mentioned them. Um, not that I know of Metallica because you've mentioned them, but they're obviously ubiquitous. Uh, one of the, one of the bigger bands, if not the biggest, um, you know, from a global perspective, but who, who else when you were coming up when you were younger and, and really discovering sounds for the first time. Who, who are you listening to? Do you remember? Well, I mean, a lot of it was, you know, pretty common back then was playing on the radio but, you know, I there was a little bit of tape trading going on even, even in my little neck of the woods, but Anthrax Slayer A CDC, obviously, then there's a, a lot of the, um what I would consider to be kind of the mainstream stuff that was, you know, Van Halen Guns and Roses at the time, uh Black Sabbath and then pretty much the popular stuff. So like depeche mode, really what was getting played? So I was really into metal and then kind of they wouldn't, you don't really call it alternative, but it was, you know, like the Pesh mode, the cult, the cure, stuff like that. Um And, but I also listen to R and B Lina Richie um Hugh Lewis in the news, but I don't think that's R and B Michael Jackson OBV, obviously def Leopard in excess um poison, you know, I kind of got serious about things right at the mid to late eighties. So there was a huge sea change in the music. And then, you know, 1990 was my freshman year in high school and that's when everything just changed, you know, with Nirvana Allison Chanes, Sound, Garden, Pearl Jam, you know, everything shifted from, you know, hair metal or hair rock to like grunge. And then you still had kind of like Metallica mega death, those guys still doing their thing. But then they kind of went a little bit more mainstream with the black album. And so it was a cool time to be 14 because you weren't, you didn't, these guys weren't jumping around in tights with makeup on anymore and it was a different, more visceral. Yeah. Well, they still were, but go ahead, I'm sorry. Outside of a no, I was gonna say outside of Axel Rose, I'd agree with you there. Yeah. But it was, um, it was a pure, uh, it felt like music was pure again. It wasn't overproduced. It wasn't, you know, it was just, you know, guys playing a few chords on a guitar, a guy on a bass and a, you know, Dave girl and the drums, you know, that was a, that was a cool time to be listening to music and to be 14 and like, um I was driving to a dance, I think I was, I don't know if I was 15 or 16 and it was me and my buddy were driving to a dance and white zombie came on the radio. It was the first time I ever heard White Zombie. I remember looking at my buddy and I said, I don't know what this is, but this is gonna be big man. And um, that was white zombie. It was, uh, I think it was Thunder Kiss 65 or I don't remember what, what the song was, but I remember to my, uh like it was yesterday and the crazy thing was that was getting radio play in Nebraska. Oh, wow, that's long. And so that is a testament to be, to, to talk about how much music changed in like three years, you know, in three years everything changed and then you had corn coming up and corn was getting, you know, you had this new metal stuff. So, like, I don't know, man, like 88 to like 95 was like a massive sea change in music. I think I could be wrong. But, well, I think for, especially for the artists that you spoke about for sure. And it feels like a, I mean, looking back on it now that and hearing you talk about it, it almost sounds like a golden period or a new golden period, temporary golden period with, with the grunge and the hard rock thing taking, yeah, I kind of equate it to and I know people probably freak out but like seventies, like the doors Janis Joplin. Um I think it was just like this different music that all came about at the same time and there's so many, you know, really gifted artists and it just changed in an instant and then it changed again. Right? Because when you think about, think about those artists, all of the almost all of those artists that you just named by about the mid to late nineties and certainly onwards, I think it could be argued that they, I mean, so, well, some of the bands, you know, broke up, split up or whatever the case, but a lot of them, you could argue, maybe lost a bit of their mojo or maybe they were out of favor from a popularity perspective. They're still making music. Some of them, I mean, like Metallic is a good example of that. I mean, they've kind of survived, I think they're their own entity really. But, um, yeah, I think they're the biggest rock band of all time. I mean, you could argue that Rolling Stones, The Beatles, but I mean, no mainstream, no mainstream band has had the impact or, you know, has toured as much and had the financial success that Metallica has outside of like the Rolling Stones. Yeah. Rolling Stones and like, uh, you know, The Beatles. Um, I mean, you, you got Bruce Springsteen, you got a, well, a CDC is very, very, um, well regarded and has made a ton of money and sold a lot of records. But you, but you're right, you know, there's, you know, corn still makes records. They still make albums. I mean, I went to, uh, a static X show on Friday. I don't know if you ever heard that? I heard all of them but I haven't heard them, so I'll have to check them out. Yeah. Uh, check out Wisconsin Death Trip. That's probably their best record. That's what they're, they're known best for. But, yeah, I saw, uh, Static X, I saw Mushroom Head dope. And, uh, who else was Fear Factory? And then, uh, there's a little band society one that opened up for him. So, but I think popular music. Yeah, it ebbs and flows and changes. But if you can, if you're still making music after 20 years of doing it, you know, and that you're doing something. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, it definitely means something that they weren't there. Bands like that or artists like that. They're not there for the quick payday. They're there because they're, they do it because they need to kind of thing. Yeah, I think, I guess that the heavy side of what you listen to and a lot of it is tends to be heavier but based on the names you just, uh, thrown out, where can you pin that down to something? Is it, I mean, I know it's hard to pin down preferences but, um, what is it about it? For me? It's not, I, you know, it was junior high. I was at my buddy's house, his brother and this was a time when like metal was somewhat counterculture. So if, if you had a bunch of patches, so you'd, so here's the, the, the uniform for a metal head, it's a denim jacket with the sleeves ripped off with a whole bunch of pat like anthrax patches slayer, all that sewn on and then that goes over a black leather jacket and then you have like a mullet. That was the, the metal head uniform. And I guess it was a little bit, you know, out caster that I liked, but then I also started playing sports and it just seemed like we listened to a lot of metal, whether it was in a weight room or like before football games or what have you. And I don't know, just all my buddies listened to it. We had a great time. Um, my senior prom, we had a mosh pit in my senior. Oh, wow. That, and that's not a, is that a normal occurrence? I mean, I don't, I don't, that doesn't sound that was, it was for us. Um, and I, I still, I make a joke that Metallica owes me a cumber B because I had to pay for my cumber because I ripped it at, at my senior prom because I had paid the rental company for it. But that's just how I grew up, you know, and, and is it, I mean, it sounds like, uh, there was a community there, right. Even in metal, even in Nebraska. And I'm imagining Nebraska is probably, certainly not the best, best place of heavy metal. No, not at all. A very, very, I think there's only 3 million people that live in the state. But, you know, we, there was magazines that people read, you know, um, and people would, you know, mail cassettes, uh, back and forth and that's how really metal kind of propagated itself before e even before like MTV, because I think Metallica and then mega death were some of the only folks that actually got a, uh, you know, video on and I think one by Metallica was the one that got a bunch of, like, play on MTV. But there was a lot of other bands that we knew about prior to that ever happening. And I don't know where it came from. I don't know how it got to, you know, my neck of the woods but it did and we listened to it. I think it was just so different and so fast and so raw. That again, I don't know why I liked it, but I immediately connected with it. Yeah, I mean, you use the word raw. I think that's a very interesting word to use because I think if you exclude some of the shinier, more glossy production that has been occasionally used in rock music, I think probably even in heavy rock music, if you strip that away, you're left with, you know, rocking thrashing guitars and voices and energy and it's a, it's a very visceral sort of thing. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Primal. Primal. And I, again, I don't know why I like what I like. But I do. You primal? Like you primal? Yeah. I, uh, I still listen to it all the time. I mean, I love new music but like there is, um, uh, have you ever heard a guy named Chuck Klosterman? Yeah, he wrote some stuff for, um, I think he wrote a lot of stuff for Rolling Stone, but he also wrote a book called Sex Drugs and Cocoa Puffs. And it was basically a collection of, you should check it out. It's a great read. Um, it's a collection of essays that he wrote opinion pieces and one of the, the, the gist of one of his articles or chapters in there was that whatever music you were listening to when you started to come of age, your teenage years started messing around with girls or whatever it was or whatever you like, whatever music was on is imprinted on you like your DNA and that will stick with you throughout the rest of your life because it's not necessarily that the music was better. It's, that, that music was the soundtrack to your life when you were, you know, discovering yourself and, you know, growing up and becoming a man or a woman or whatever it is, is. And that is, it's been the truth in my, uh, in my listening experience is all that music that I listened to back then still pretty much dominates what I listen to. Now. I listen to stuff that's newer by the same artist, but it's still the same, it's the same stuff I keep going back to. Yeah, that's super interesting. I mean, I have to admit I often have the same experience even though I try fairly hard to seek out new music and discover new music. And I do when, when it's like, it's like comfort food, right? Like when you, when you're home alone or you've got some space to yourself and you feel like pulling out something that is familiar, like you said, and that, you know, you grew up with, there's nothing like that, there's nothing like putting out a record or an album and, and from your, from those years and, and that'll never change. That's crazy. Well, and I think it's also the measuring stick that I use for how good a system is because once you, you, you let's whatever, what's your favorite, what's your favorite album that you growing up? What was your favorite record? Oh, well, I it's funny a few weeks ago, I did an episode about this, um, the live album Alchemy by Dire Straits. OK. I mean, this is, you know, there's a few, but let's just go with that one. Ok. So dire straits that record. So you've heard it probably what, hundreds 1000 lost count. Ok. So now I fell as I used to fall asleep to it. So let's say you put on a new pair of headphones or you put up a new speaker, you're listening to that and you're like, wait a minute, I've never heard that before. At that moment, you are hooked. You are now an audio file. That's what I tell everybody is. Once you've listened to something and there's extra music that was in there that you never knew about, then you're hooked to your, an audio file and you will always be an audio file. Um because it's the, it's the stuff like, how can we even know if something is good if we don't have so much experience with it that we can even recognize when things are different. And that's what being an audio file is, is just seeing the, hearing the differences and then talking about it. And that's the only thing that I do. I just tell you what I hear differently. That's it. That's a great, that's a great catch catch phrase you should use, you should use that. Um Yeah, look, that's a, that's also an interesting point because when I think about like that album I've heard on uh vinyl through my speakers CD through my speakers, the live blu-ray. And I've also listened on, like, I've streamed it on headphones or HD files as well. And every time the me the medium, I mean, some of them are closer than others. But there are distinct differences between, let's say the vinyl and the stream and the stream and the differences between a speaker and a headphone is crazy like the amount and maybe this goes for most music. But when you put on a pair of head, good headphones and you've got a decent rig and it doesn't need to be expensive. Like you say, the detail that you can hear, uh, for me almost never translates through my speakers the same way. No, I agree with you. And when I'm listening to a dack, um, especially a B dax, it's always through headphones and it's always through a headphone that I, that's pretty revealing. So because a lot of changes in dags are pretty subtle. However, some decks have a huge sound stage and some are very narrow. Hearing that on a headphone is very difficult to do. So oftentimes, instrument separation and sound stage really is only revealed when you're listening through speakers. Hm. That's interesting. Yeah, like the Deer series too. I don't know if you're familiar with that deck, uh, only through your review and some others. But yeah, so it's an R two R deck and it sounds great. It sounds really good and I was comparing it to the **** by Frost Two and I think the topping D 90 when I was doing headphones, you know, it's, I, I had a switcher and I switched it between headphones. They, they all sounded good. Um, but it was when I put it on speakers that there was a stark difference didn't really have as much to do sonically but how immersive the music was and how big and wide and tall the music was, was really translated well as speakers and that, and that's probably a deck that does that more. So then would you say the majority of others that you've heard? Yeah. Yeah. At the, for a while that was, it really stood on its own as being. And I said it in the first video I ever did about it. It was the most important hi-fi, the most important piece of hi-fi equipment I'd ever heard simply because it changed the paradigm or my expectation of uh entire product category. Like I'd never heard space that big before on another piece of equipment. And that's another kind of sea change for me when I was like, oh my goodness, like the source is so utterly important because I always used to say, yeah, change your speakers. You want different sound better, sound, change your speakers. It was that, that when I heard that source and how much better it made everything sound. Uh I thought, OK, maybe I have this wrong or at least I'm not giving the source as much credit as it deserves. And I kind of liken it to a lens on a camera or like taking a digital picture on your cell phone versus a picture with a, you know, a fancy camera that has 45 megapixels. There's only so much zooming in, you can do on a cell phone picture that if you had, you know, a camera that has, you know, 10 times the number of megapixels, you can zoom in a lot more and see a lot more detail. And that's kind of like if you have an OK source, there's only so much that you're gonna be able to get even if you have the best speakers. But if you have a great source, then you can start changing things in the chain and you're gonna, it's gonna continue to get better. But if you don't have a great source or a great foundation, then it's, there's only so far you can take it, I guess is a better way to put it. Yeah, and a lot like I should say to people that haven't seen that video, definitely check that out because you go into a lot more detail with, with respect to the specifics around what you heard and, and the design and, and all the rest of it. But that item that there is too, is not a cheap item, right? Maybe in the, in, in the world of high end Dax. It's uh it's on the cheaper side, but it's, I mean, you could get a great pair of speakers for that same money. Right. Yeah. At the time I think it was selling for about 750 bucks. So, yes. Yeah, it was expensive. Um, it still is rela relatively speaking. But, yeah, you can get a killer set of speakers for 5, 600 bucks. But I think when, when I started the channel I kind of had a cut off that, you know, everything was gonna be $500 or less. So if it's a pair of speakers is gonna be $500 or less turntable, blah, blah, blah, all the same stuff now with, with the way the economy and, you know, kind of. Right. Right. Pricing has gone $600 to the new $500 and then I kind of upped it and then I kind of just took the, the, the ceiling off it. But the funny thing is, is when I do a review on something that maybe has more, multiple reviews on it from other channels and it's an expensive item. I don't have as many people watch, which I found incredibly interesting because I get a lot of, hey, can you review this, can you review this and maybe it's something that another, you know, content creator has, you know, maybe there's two or three other reviews about it and it's really funny that the reaction that I see from the audience is a lot of times if it's above that threshold that I kind of set early on people just don't care. They don't. Well, you, you play because you planted that flag and, you know, it's in the name itself, right? The cheap audio, man. You're, you're somewhat restricted in theory, at least by, by that. But maybe it's, maybe it's also, I'm sure you still get reasonable hits but if you're saying it's less, uh, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is all relative, right? I mean, I'm very blessed and very lucky to have as many people watch the channel as they do and what I deem as being a successful video. Now, you know, that's obviously gone up over time to where, you know, if I would have got 1000 views on a, on a video in 24 hours, I was thrilled, you know, now, if it's 10,000 or less, I'm like, God, what did I do wrong? What's wrong with my title? What's wrong with my thumbnail? So it's too expensive. It could be. Yeah. The other thing that I that I was thinking about was um when you were talking about that DC was just going back to the, to our music. Our conversation about, you know, bands and artists and recordings, I guess is something I wanted to touch on just, just quickly uh from your perspective. And this is a bit of a loaded question. So I'll say that upfront in your mind. What plays a bigger part in how good something sounds, how a record is mastered or the quality of the deck that someone's playing it through. Oh, House Master, definitely. Ok. Yeah, I mean, I would have thought so, but, but with, after hearing your Denna FRS errors, I wasn't sure. It's kind of like watching, you know, the source material, right. So, if the source material was shot in 4 80 now you're watching it in four K, you know, it doesn't matter if you're up sample it 1000 times, you're not gonna get the same resolution out of, you know, something that was shot in four K as something that's up sampled. So, I mean, if you have a bad recording, regardless of how clinical you can look into that bad recording, it's still a bad recording with that said, I think the, the how you, how one kind of assigns is this a bad recording? That's something to be, you know, debated because there's music that I listen to a lot that, you know, people consider to be compressed or whatever it is and I enjoy the heck out of it. But as far as like if you have a good center image, if you, if it's a, if it's recorded wide, if it's mixed, well, you know, whatever it is, I think that has way more to do than, you know, if you got a crazy awesome dack or not. I mean, there's great recordings that are MP3, there's great recordings that are 24 1 92. I think there's subtle tiny differences that, you know, a good deck or a good system can reveal but garbage in garbage out pretty much. Yeah. I, I mean, I've, I've got a very similar view to, to that. In fact, I agree with, with what you said because it's, and, and the resolution, uh, camera photography sort of a metaphor was a, I think a great one to use. Uh And you see that sometimes on youtube videos where they um let's say you, I mean, live footage is a great exam, like live concert videos of bands that you love from the sixties, seventies, eighties, even nineties, often if you watch those on a, on a large TV, instead of your computer and they're at 4 80 you're watching them on a four K screen. I mean, it can be so disheartening like, even though I, I still do that, it's just so disheartening and then you put on an artist, like a concept by an artist that you don't even like or it's just, you know, you're flicking through channels and it's in extreme HD. And you think to yourself how I wish that my favorite old bands from back in the day could have had, could have been recorded in this fashion. Instead I have to look at, you know, insert name, insert name here, which I won't do. It's also interesting that a lot of the old concert footage was shot on film. So if you shoot on film, you, you know, you automatically have that 16 by nine. you have that landscape, beautiful awesomeness and the textures and everything because film is like analog, right? So it's automatically by definition pretty much high rise. But then you had everything go to like 4.3 aspect ratio shot uh shot on like television cameras and stuff like that. And there was an instant hit in like the quality of it and that didn't get better until you know, the advent of 16 by nine and how that became kind of like just the overwhelming like format. But I, I've watched a lot of concert footage or live performances and a 4.3 aspect ratio and it hurts my soul and like it's so terrible. Yeah. Yeah, it's so bad. It's so bad. But I mean, what can we do? I, I've even had to resort to finding the sometimes they have like if they're officially released concerts or whatever and they have the video version and the video is terrible. I'll just close the light, dim the lights and listen to just, just the audio side. I'll just pretend like the video doesn't exist and just focus on the music because they're some of them are painful, right? But then every now and then you find a decent, decent example. Ok. So speaking of live recordings, it sounds like you're a music, uh, lo a lover and obsessive. So, it, it, I'm not gonna ask you to list your top 10 live recordings off the top of your head. But do any come to mind maybe some that you've seen recently or even by bands that you, you know, by some of your favorite bands, any favorite live recordings? Well, I think I have to put it live in quotations here because there are the whole MTV and plug series. Um Yeah, Alison Chanes, Nirvana Corn Lance Moet are just spectacular. Um So I love all of those. Technically, it is live. They're all in one room. There is an audience, I think the Metallica from uh Moscow, I think it was 90. That's awesome. Uh Trying to think is that the one, is that the one that in the early nineties they're playing internal like a million people or something? So, yeah. And so it was a CDC and Metallica. It was right after the Berlin Wall went down. And so it was right after like it was the Soviet ***** and then all of a sudden it was Russia and a CDC and Metallica. And I think there's another couple bands they were the first bands that went in after that happened and it was bananas. How many, like if you, if nobody has seen that, please go, go to youtube and go Metallica Moscow. It's insane. It is absolutely insane. How many people are at there. I mean, there's like Soviet helicopters flying over. I mean, it was crazy. Yeah, it's a sea, it's a sea of people. Right. Yeah, it's a, it's a sea of people. I like, I like Slip Knot too. There is a Slipknot record. I think it was in, um, it wasn't Brazil. I think it was in Mexico. That concert is awesome. I'm, I'm really into it there. Corn did a thing in London. That record is awesome. Uh That recording is awesome. Now, for me, it may differ from you to where I like watching it because I see the energy and I've been to those concerts before, not necessarily that specific concert, but I see the way the crowd reacts and I just see, you know, the, the reaction to and the, the energy and that's why I think metal bands get a bad rap and I think they're the best musicians out there because who else can con controversy. So, yes, it is controversial. Who can play that fast that hard for that long and not be considered the best musicians out there. Technically, maybe not, maybe they can't hit all the things, but I would challenge any other musician to be, to go and do what they do and see how long they last. And, uh, II, I just, that's why I think I appreciate, I, I love metal but I also appreciate metal and the, I've been at slip a few times. There's, I think nine guys in that band and if you go to the, to their show, every movement by every member of that band is blocked out, they know exactly what they're doing at any given moment. And I didn't like, I always liked Slipknot. I loved slipknot after I saw them live because their stage show is an, they are absolute pros and their stage show, they are technically probably the tightest band I've ever seen live. Wow. Ok. And it's not necessarily because of the music. It's, everybody knows where they're supposed to be at when they're supposed to be there. There's no, there's no wasted movement. It's almost, it's almost a ballet. It's like a heavy metal ballet with that many people on stage. And it is, it's insane how good they are. Like Corey Taylor, like every movement is purposeful that he makes. And it's, it's really incredible to see, you know, live right, work, work ethic. And then I guess, uh, what was the word to use? Not production value but the, um, I guess the, how they, how they arrange it and organize a show. Yeah. And you watch their show and you're like, this did not happen in a vacuum. Like this is just not nine guys, you know, just having a good time on by accident. There is so much work that went into that show and it's just amazing. I mean, they got pyro going like a lot of bands. Save the pyro for the end, like slip knots going throughout the entire show. And there's guys walking up on a scaffolding in between these, these, uh, torches, you know, the flame throwers and they know exactly when they need to be where they need to be. And it's, it's, it's all inspiring and I, I don't, I, I think even if you're not in the metal, if you watch it from that perspective, you'll be like, these guys are pros and these guys are great musicians. The, the marker of a great live show, a flame thrower throughout the set. I love it. That's brilliant. Absolutely. Absolutely fantastic. I, I mean, I would, I would, I would have said challenge accepted earlier, but I know it, it, it's clear to me and, and to anyone listening. Um how much you're in this, in the, in the metal world. But I would also like as a, as, as a counter point, I mean, I, I'd get, I would get slaughtered for, not for, not, not necessarily rebutting, but at least giving you a counter. Um And, and keep in mind that I haven't seen what you've seen, right? Like I haven't attended a live show by, by corn, but I would say there are, there are a handful of artists out there and bands outside the metal sphere that I have seen live that had a similar, I can, I can sense what you're saying and I kind of am picking up on a similar vibe that I've had and it's usually people that are as much entertainers as they are musicians. So, like when I think of, uh, I got to see Springsteen later in his career, but completely, completely tore the roof off and half of it was not because of what he was playing, but what was happening and the fact that the fact was that three songs in, he looked like someone had, had dumped him into a bucket of container or a bucket of water or something. Like he's just, he's drenched because he's putting that much energy into it. So, yeah. And there are other examples. Prince comes to mind. I love sprinting. I love Prince. I mean, these guys are pros, right? And I've never been concert. Yeah, exactly. So, there are, I think there are probably, each genre has a small handful of people that rise to the top, like the cream of the creme de la creme from the, from the point of view of how, how good the show is, how good the performance is and it's in addition to the already or inspiring music. So that's cool. Yeah, I'm gonna have to check some of that. I'm gonna have to check some of that, some of that out, even though I'm not the biggest metal head. Well, and, and a lot of people aren't. And, um, I, I think I lean into it because I, I do love a variety of music. Um, I go to most of the shows, like I went to Atlanta smart set and I'm, I, I waited till the last minute to buy a ticket because generally if I usually go to concerts by myself and so I can always get a screaming deal on a amazing seat if you wait like two hours before the show because people are like, oh no, we're not gonna sell this. So they, you know, they let the ticket go. I'm telling you I was 10 ft away from me, Leis Mar. That was a snoozer of a show. I mean, I was just not into it at all. Um And I, I kind of figured out like, yeah, it's about the music but you know what it's more about, it's about the crowd and it's about the experience. And I think that's why I gravitate towards me is because there's a shared experience with the crowd. And there's also a weird dynamic of like people are more rude at the Lance more set concert than they are at a corn show. Like if you get knocked down in a corn show, they pick you back up like everybody's and you got these guys with full back tattoos that are, you know, elbow checking these other dudes, right? And if one of them falls down, everybody stops and picks them up, you know, it's like it. So what do you mean? No one, no one woke you, no one woke, you up during the ALA MERS. No, I, I watched the whole show. I don't, it was, she was good but it wasn't, it's a different thing. Yeah. It's a completely different. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think, I, I think probably my closest but I've seen Muse in live a number of, a number of times and I get what you're saying, it's a different sort of thing when there's a stage show lights a craft. But also, like, rocking out is a different sort of thing when people start moshing, you know, from song from the concert opener. Yeah, I mean, I, I wish I was born in a different era so that I got to see some of the, um uh maybe some of the metal bands that you're talking about while they were in their prime, but also some of the classic bands, you know, some of the classic rock bands would, that would have been great. And now we have to watch 2 42 40 P. We meet again. Yeah, I'll say this and then I'll get off the live music thing is I'm not a religious person per se but I do believe like in a universe or a God or a creator or anything. I, I don't know, whatever you want to put on it. And, uh my brain goes pretty quick and like, I don't have a lot of like, time where I'm sitting and I'm relaxing and I'm just thinking, you know, like there's always something going on in my head except when I'm at a concert, when I'm in a concert. It's the only time that I can just sit and be apart and take, like, be present and I try to be mindful of that. I try to be more present now. But is, it's the place where I like, it's almost transcendent for me to be at a, a show because I'm completely invested in present at that time. And most other times in my life, I just don't have that. And that's why I think maybe music is always going back circling all the way back to your first question. Maybe that's why I love music so much because it's the only time that like my brain kind of shuts down and I'm just in the moment and listening and enjoying it took a long time, took over an hour to answer that question. I think we've probably, but, but got, got there in the end. Yeah. No, that's, uh it makes, it's, it makes so much sense. I mean, I can relate to that big time and not just in a live context. I have to admit like when I sit down later at night and the day is done and especially if it's been a manic or crazy day and I can play something that either moves me or more often than not these days. I play something a little bit calmer to kind of take the edge off. It's re, it's just remarkable what kind of impact that has. You know, and again, sitting in front of a decent hi-fi system that doesn't have to cost the world as you say. But it can take you to this, to this other place. I mean, a, a friend came over the other day and we II, I listened to, uh close to the edge by. Yes, I don't know if you've heard that album but that, I mean, that took me close to the edge of like some, some imaginary world, you know, it was out of, out of control and, and, and music can do that. So, yeah. No, I, I identify with what you're saying for sure. I, I think the, the mental health aspect of music uh cannot be like, overstated. Like, it's, it's amazing that it can change a mood, you know, within five minutes, you know, of just sitting down, closing your eyes and just listening to your favorite record. Um It's amazing. I, I cannot watch Slip Knot at night otherwise I'll be up all night and sometimes II, I swear to you. So there's a couple of songs, there's one song called Spit It Out and they play that then usually it's their last song they, they play at a concert. Ok. And if I'm tired in the morning and I'm having a hard time getting going, I will watch that on youtube and it's like, it's better than five cups of coffee. That's fantastic. Slipknot. Better than five cups of coffee. You're giving me great sound bites here. So, so I have to, I have to ask you then, what do you play to relax or to wind down if it's not? Slip Knot? Do you have a, do you have a few go to? Yeah. Um, I have a, a playlist called Sleep. I'll just, I'll open it up right now. I'll tell you what's on. Ok. Album number one, Alaus Morrison. Uh, I don't think she's on there. Let me see. All right, I gotta go to Amazon music library playlists. People give me crap about this all the time but I love a Mumford and Sons. They're on there. Ok. Yeah. Um, I know that it's kind of cool not to like them. Let's see. Adele. Um, you got some pearl jam in there. Uh Sleep. Yeah. Uh, better. Maybe one of the light. Ok. Ok. Yeah. Um, Chris Cornell. Bunch of Chris Cornell in there. Yeah. Yeah. The Lumineers. Ok. Canon Crows, Norah Jones, weezer, Nirvana. Um, the, you know, their live stuff. Mazzy Star is in there. Oh, that, yeah, that'll put, that'll, yeah, that'll take the edge off. So, yeah, that's my, that's my sleep. Um, uh, playlist. Yeah, I kind of get stuff for every mood. Mood I like. Um, what is it? Cage, the elephant, I think that is. Yeah. Cage, the elephant. Pixies. Alison Chanes Radiohead, I got some radiohead in here. Is this still the sleep, is, this is still the sleep playlist? This is a different playlist. But is this different playlist now different playlist? But it's still what I would consider to be like a chill playlist. Actually, I think I can have a playlist called Chill. Uh Elton John Peter Gabriel, ex ambassadors. I don't even know what that is. Uh Hozier. Hozier. Yeah. Foreigner. I got some you two in there. Bonnie Tyler is in there. Um, it's not all metal but this is, this is another side of the cheap audio man for the part that people rarely see. I love John. He's awesome. That movie is great too. I haven't seen the movie well tried and then I, I couldn't get through it. I just, I have, I have this thing about musicals. I don't know why. Like, I haven't seen the queen one. I can't because I'm a massive Queen fan and I just can't see anyone other than Freddie. But that's, that's a whole other story. Um, yeah, but yeah, Elton's fantastic, isn't he? Like, I've been, I've been going through an Elton phase recently. I'll tell you what that music, that music, that movie is. Like, if there's any historical accuracy to that, it's a real, it was really interesting if it's actually true and kind of a sad story, you know, like how he grew up and everything and then of course he, you know, he is had some issues with substance abuse and really, um, interesting though. But, yeah, I mean, he's, he's the best man. He's the king, you know, or the queen, whatever, whatever. Right. Exactly. Um, I mean, like you can't mess with that body of work. I mean, you look at the, I think, I look at the, uh, like the most successful bands of all time and, you know, he's like the top five of like the most albums sold and things like that. Yeah, I, I think there's usually a correlation in my mind anyway, between the highest selling and the, and the, I won't use the word lame but the kind of more mainstream middle of the road artists yet, I don't know. I mean, he's had such an incredible career but his classic period and that classic work, I it's absolutely timeless. It's just crazy and people talk about Lennon mccartney as songwriters and lyricists for and, and, and, and I, you know, I wouldn't disagree but I would add Elton John Bernie to into that mix any day of the week. So, yeah, yeah, most of those. So if you go to like best selling artists of all time for the most part, it's real music in there. I mean, there's like Britney Spears pops in there and whatever Britney Spears is Britney Spears, you know, you know, people like it fine. Um for the most part though, it's real artists in there, you know, it's like Rolling Stones, you know, The Beatles, of course, Michael Jackson, there's real music in there and, um, you know, at some point you just can't, like, argue with like, ok, numbers like it is what it is and these people love this and, but I think rediscovering Elton John's catalog through a hi fi a good hi fi system was really an eye opener because almost, you know, Rocket Man, all that stuff I had heard in the background of my life growing up through crappy system and put a pair of pair of headphones on. I'm like, holy cow. This is incredible blown away, right? Like those his early, early to mid seventies albums set the the sound on them is otherworldly I think in the tone and his vocal, like it was so different and pure and like passionate and it's like he just had a different vibe, like his voice was so different, almost twanging country like, but yet not being country at all and w