Coach Cast Podcast
Description
Vocal Characteristics
Language
EnglishVoice Age
Middle Aged (35-54)Accents
North American (Canadian-General) North American (General) North American (US Mid-Atlantic)Transcript
Note: Transcripts are generated using speech recognition software and may contain errors.
we'll begin at the beginning. So my name is Barbara Kellerman, I'm the James MacGregor. Burns lecture in public leadership at the Harvard Kennedy school at Harvard University. The 46 coach cast that I'm coach maybe the week after the Sport Leadership Conference, the Petro Canada Sport Leadership Conference in here in Ottawa. I am energized and invigorated and inspired and I think that if you have an opportunity to attend this conference next year, I say do it, I might even travel for it. It was here in Ottawa this year and got a chance to hear from coaches and athletes and uh Chef de mission for the Toronto Pan Am Games 2015 and athletes from all across the country and it was fantastic. I suggest that you try to make it next year. It was my first time attending and I will definitely try to attend again this week on the coach cast. We're talking to Dr. Barbara Kellerman from Harvard University about largely about the NFL, which is something that we don't often do, but with Adrian Peterson having his grievance hearing coming up after his child abuse scandal, with Alden smith being reinstated after his domestic violence. Um, charges were dropped being reinstated with the san Francisco 49 ers and with Richie incognito getting a trial with the Denver broncos following his bullying scandal that he was involved in last year with the Miami dolphins. It's a really interesting time for the leadership of the league. Of course, there's a lot of things that we can learn from those leaders to bring back to our own home clubs and I hope you really enjoy the thoughts that dr Kellerman has. Dr Kellman is the author of followership and also her new book, Hard Times Leadership in America. I hope you all enjoy Dr Barbara Kellerman. In our email exchange, you mentioned um, the NFL and their current challenges as being as much about followers as about leaders in that instance. Were you thinking specifically of concussions, domestic violence, which challenges in particular the NFL's dealing with a lot of them. Which challenges were you speaking of and which followers? Well, I was of course speaking across the board, but if you don't mind, I'll step back a little tiny bit. So the National Football League is not exempt from the kinds of rules and habits that characteristic other institutions in american life. So what we're going to talk about with regard to sports and perhaps the NFL in particular is really embedded in a larger context, in which leaders generally that is people who seem to be in positions of power or authority or influence are having a much harder time than they used to. So whether it's the president or the Congress or CeoS or superintendents of school systems or indeed, uh, figures in the catholic church just generally as a general principle leaders are under siege by followers. That is ordinary people who have new tools at their disposal to demean and diminish leaders in those tools include everything from changes in the culture, which is uh much less tolerant of people in positions of authority and much quicker to criticize and cut people down to, for example, changes in technology which are hugely important here. Social media in particular allowing ordinary people to have a voice such as they have never had before. So the NFL is by no means exempt from those general rules. And obviously uh people in positions of authority in the NFL are finding that they're having to deal with a public that is followers um in ways they never had to before. And that ranges from the media to ordinary people to fans, to football players themselves. So across the board that The NFL is having trouble with its various constituencies, just the way many other institutions and organizations in America are having in the year 2014. And that idea then of the um is it a question of managing the followers? Where in when we had the email, the Ray Rice had the the video had just come out and now um the public outrage and the voice was heard again right now with the video. Is that is it an issue of managing where the NFL or not the NFL, but any leaders in this particular context that you're talking about have a difficulty with? Oh man, we don't control the information anymore that gets to our followers. Yeah, well you really touched on an important point, which is information. Uh so people like you and me who might not have had information access to information 5, 10, 15 years ago, not to speak of 25 years ago now have access generally two very large amounts of information. It doesn't mean that some information is not withheld. As we've seen. Part of that video, of course, was withheld from us for three months. But in general, sooner or later we get most of the information. Uh, so someone like Roger Goodell, who used to be privy to it, along with, let's say, the owners Now finds that he cannot control the information. So the information is not controllable, nor is the public reaction controllable. You've got media that's even old media, radio and television there on 24/7. So not to speak of the new media, that, as I said before is yapping at people's feet in ways that it never did before. So it's not about a particular scandal to hit. For example, the National Football League, but it is about, you know, if it were just one thing, arguably the league in Goodell could escape it. Uh, and it is certainly possible that Goodell will remain in his position. And in fact, some people thought he'd already be gone, but he's not, he's at least last I heard he was still there and depends as you would know better than I on what the position of the owners is who I know, generally support him and have been enormously pleased with his performance, especially as it pertains to money. Well, that until he starts causing the money, uh, well, you know, uh, you know, it's, it's hard to say how this is going to go, uh, things our attention span, that by that, I'm talking about the american people in general tends to be short in part because every day seems to bring with it some kind of new crisis. So whereas a week or two ago we were talking about not much more than the NFL. Now, that has sort of receded. There's been nothing, there's no other shoe that's dropped, is nothing new. I wouldn't say it's receded. I think people remember it and I think the leash is short, but we're JR heads are now jammed with Ebola. Do I need to worry about getting this disease. Uh, do I need to worry about some ISIS terrorists hopping on a plane and blowing up God knows what city. So, uh, it's such an intense media environments, it seems, we're all lurch from crisis to crisis. But the bottom line remains that ordinary people and that's filtered in your line of work. It is, it is uh, the players, it is the fans, it is the public at large. It is the media, you can name the various constituencies, different stakeholders. Advertisers very important here, uh, don't want to be associated with anything that seems too tarnished. So I'm sorry, that with the radisson with Exactly sure. And even Anheuser Busch and other other advertisers, so in other words, the numbers of stakeholders, the numbers of I call them followers or others, the numbers of players who demand to be heard. And I don't mean actually, I should say actors, I don't mean players as players, the number of constituencies that are demanding to be heard, that have allowed noisy, clamorous voice nipping at the heels of Goodell, even if they don't finally bring them down, that is a louder noise and a more, you know, from numerous different sources. Um but again, to go back to the point I made at the start, Goodell is not the only leader who is faced with this kind of issue, ceos are Leaders across the board, particularly, of course our politicians are um this is just the nature of the leader follower relationship in the second decade of the 21st century, right? And I'm glad you brought the word brought the word relationship, that idea of the relationship with the stakeholders and now they're they're they're louder and they have more of a voice, is there evidence? And maybe, but maybe we, we go back 15 years too old media days, um is there uh evidence of stewardship of that, So we hear often in business school, the idea of relationship management, stakeholder management, right? And that sometimes it's a particular role depending on how big the organization is um is there evidence of stewardship of the followers, right? Where in there is a, you know, there that's been done successfully. And is there anything that we can draw from there? That that might be applicable now to these different contacts? Uh well, you know, your word management of or stewardship of a fairly good one in general. Most people find that leadership teams are more numerous than they were before. So if it used to be kind of this image of the lone executive, most executives now have larger teams for the precise reason that you're saying, because there are so many different players or constituents or stakeholders, sometimes literally shareholders that need to be managed or stewarded uh that uh no single leader can do it alone. So part of it is the capacity to delegate well, but I would argue that another part of it and I do this and I have another book coming out in a minute called Hard Times, membership in America, I would argue that this is about all of us. Leaders included, understanding that the old days where all we would do is focus on the leader, let's say. In this case, we just watched Roger Goodell and see what he did and does he handle it? Right, that's just not the right way to think about it anymore, because the leader now is just one among several different players of major importance and these are all embedded in a larger context. So I now only talk about a leadership system and, that system has three equally important parts, one of which is certainly the leader, it's not to diminish the leader, rather it is to supplement the leader with two other things that everybody should be thinking about, what whatever position there in uh one is the followers or the others who are the other players that need to be taken into account here or the other actors that need to be taken into account. And the other is the larger context within which both leaders and followers necessarily are embedded. So whatever happens in the National Football League, It is embedded in the current context of the National Football League, how that league is constituted, what it deems as its mission, how it is perceived by others and that the National Football League itself is embedded in a larger context, which is the United States of America in the second decade of the 21st century, in which leadership is difficult to exercise even under relatively optimum circumstances, relatively optimal. Um so our listeners are primarily um coaches of amateur athletes. And I I have a question about the the line between, I think context makes sense. We talk a lot about the puzzle. So every team um is dealing with a different puzzle. Right? My contacts is different from your contacts. Mhm. But we do talk about the, the question I have is about the line between leaders and followers and and we mentioned Roger Goodell and the owners, technically Roger Goodell works for the owners of the NFL um, and similarly with a football program. So I'm thinking right now, our particular college team here in uh, Eastern Ontario, um, uh, the assistant coaches and the head coaches and then even the captains, each one of them in certain contexts are leaders and each one of them in certain context or followers where the head coach reports to the athletic director houses. How is that? Um, how do you address that? You know, nobody is just a leader or just a follower in any, in any particular context. Okay, so you're hitting on something really important. And I think the more people think about these things, the more they come up with exactly what you just said. So even the most important person, let's say for the sake of this conversation. Barack Obama is the most powerful person in this country for the sake of this definitely not be. But let's say for the sake of conversation, he is in the United, we only have 14 minutes left. So let's say, well there you go. Uh, so, uh, you know, you just have to watch the american president to understand how much of a follower he is. How at the mercy he is various, uh, forces in the domestic and in the national and in the international system. So in the national system it can be anybody or any any player, from the media to the public, from democrats to republicans, from members of Congress to the courts, you name it. And of course in the international system, we have seen that our american president is running awfully hard just to remain in place. And it's not even clear that he's remaining in place. I mean, I just wrote a blog this morning which I think I titled how to change the map and I indicated that a regular nation state Vladimir Putin's Russia has changed the map by taking Crimea away from Ukraine. It's now Russian property and as we are seeing with ISIS now there are non state actors that our President, my president has to contend with whoever heard of ISIS a few months ago, which is now redrawing the map of the Middle East in Syria and Iraq have in effect vanished. So is the President, the United States a leader or follower. As you ask about coaches and even players. Assistant coaches, head coaches, everybody's got somebody they have to answer to everybody. Goodell, as you point out, is responsible to the owners. So he is as far as they are concerned. Absolutely. Their subordinate. He is hired and fired at their pleasure. But he is of course also commissioner or ahead of the National Football League. So it is very, very typical for people even in positions of high authority to be both simultaneously. Yes, on one level they are leaders. But yes, on a very important other level they can't lead at all, They are vulnerable to the vicissitudes of what other people want and when they want it. And so one could argue that many people are simultaneously. This is not limited to people in high places, many people in their daily lives. If you're a middle level manager, for example, you are simultaneously a leader and a manager and also a follower or subordinate subordinate is I think people will will easily identify themselves as a subordinate. I have a boss. Um so I can look at a flow chart of the organization and I'm subordinate to the people above me on that flow chart, but the idea of self identifying as a follower and more than that, a week follower, a by standard or or a participant. Do does anybody actually self identify in that way or um or do we have to again manage the the way that that's spoken about as far as getting people to buy into whatever the mission is of whichever organization we're talking about. Sure, I mean that's another really good question. You know, I've been leadership person, that's what I write about many books, many articles, it's what I teach. I don't teach how to be a leader, I teach about it. And when I decided to write a book about followers, which to me in english is the natural obverse of the leader. How do you have a leader without at least one follower. I came up against, the very question that you're raising, which is the value judgment that we associate with the word follower to us. Many of us it means sheep. If I say I'm giving a class on followership, people go okay, like why would I want to take a class followership? I want to learn how to be a leader, not a follower, but you know the truth of it is the more I thought about it, I decided just to stay with that word, although I sometimes just use the word other because again, you know, the truth is the dirty little secret is that most of us follow most of the time, I mean we're socialist to follow, you know from birth really we do generally what our parents tell us to do, then we go to school and we generally, most of us do what our teachers supposed to, then we go to work and we generally by and large do what our bosses want us to do, so most of your or if we don't we can we can run into trouble. Uh so most of us, you know, in fact do follow most of the time, but I certainly agree and I can tell you from experience that there is a kind of visceral objection to the word, however logical it is because it is in english the natural antonym of leader, so the opposite of a leader is a follower, if you will and there is no such thing as either good leadership or bad leadership without simultaneously good followership and yes, absolutely bad followership. Well, you say it's, you say it's an antonym and that makes sense, and I think that's obviously what people react to, and hey, we need you to be a good follower, um but it's obviously again from end to, I'd like to plug right now, we love the book followership. Well that's why we called you, because that's where how we were introduced to your work, um but it's also a compliment, right? It has to be a compliment to leadership in that way, not just the opposite. You know, it's necessary leadership, it's like, again, you can't lead unless there's at least one person that's willing to go along with you to follow your direction, you or whatever. I mean, uh look increasingly leadership is seen as a collaborative enterprise, We now know the words in power and participation and team or even teaming, So everybody gets that. In the 21st century, it is perceived to be a much more um you know, an enterprise or an activity in which more people participate, it's no longer this sort of top down command and control management thing. Uh but in the end, um if you're going to talk about leadership, you really have to talk about followership and again to repeat a point I made earlier, which I happen to think it's really important if you look at instances of good leadership, you will see how uh interwoven into the process are at least some good followers, and similarly, if you have bad leadership, this is not one person doing that alone, This one person, this bad leader inevitably must absolutely have some followers who are willing to participate or pressured into participating into this quote bad activity, whether it's evil leadership or corrupt leadership or mean and callous leadership, uh this is uh this is never done just by a leader, it is always involving some other people who I for the sake of the english language refer to as followers in followership, by the way, if I can say one other thing is in my use of the word follower, and if you've read followership, you will know this, you know, to be essentially a subordinate doesn't mean that you always act like a subordinate. A good follower, in fact is uh feels comfortable speaking up and saying, I don't want to do this, I think it's wrong or I don't want to do this, I think it's the incorrect way of going about it. So to be of a follower status, that is to be on some organizational hierarchy, let's say beneath somebody else does not mean you don't have a voice and you can be courageous and you can be bold and you can speak up and you can refuse to play the part of the passive participant, you can be an active follower who has the courage to speak truth to power? Well, I think that and that's the interesting part of the of the book. I think the interesting point of it is that you have, you know, there's a there's a responsibility of being a follower as well. Um not it's not just it isn't just passive um you'd mentioned um corrupt or evil leadership. Sometimes leadership is just ineffectual, right? It's just they're just good at it. You just haven't had. Absolutely. So where does you can can uh can a good follower follow? Ineffectual leadership? Um in that way where there's still somebody that is a uh die hard follower but has decided or it just happens to be in a bad situation gets back to contact. Look uh how many of us, how many of your listening audience, how many people do you know who say, oh my God, I've got the worst boss, he is so incompetent or she is so ineffective. It's pathetic. However, as we both know, most of the time those bosses stay in place, you know, it's not as if it is very easy to unseat someone from a position of leadership or management, even if it is widely agreed that that person is incompetent or ineffectual or ineffective people tend to stay in place in parts because those of us who follow, who are this person subordinates, calculate that we may pay a penalty if somehow we raise the question of this person's incompetence. So it can get to be a fairly complicated business and I never want to make it seem easy. Oh well, why don't you just remove your bad leader, your bad manager? What's the matter with you? So I'm always very careful about not trying to come across as O. G. This is such a simple thing to do. Uh there's a reason badly to stay in place. And it's because mostly followers calculate that the cost of trying to remove the bad leader, whether even if it is simply a matter of incompetence can be to personally or professionally high. Now, that doesn't mean that some of us in the term whistle blower is in fact exactly about that, about people who say, even if there's nobody here with me, I'm going to say what I believe to be true leadership or the management of this organization is deeply flawed. So there are all kinds of permutations here, but by and large, it's worth bearing in mind that bad leader, bad leaders are notoriously able to stay where they are, even though many people around them, even when many people around them recognize that they are not being competent. Excellent, Excellent. And as we wrap here, question of building a team uh, and building strong organization, if uh strong followership or is it a talent or is it then it gets it gets back to the idea of stewardship as well. Right? And coaching. Um is it something that can be, we, you know, I'm going out this afternoon to watch a high school football game and I'm going to look for the strongest tallest, fastest kid out there, right? And similarly, we also identify some of those uh student athletes as leaders because their captains on their team or their the valedictorian along those lines, is it possible to do something similar along the lines, understanding that when they get to college, most of them will be in a follower role, you know, for the majority of their college career, is it possible to do? Yeah, I mean, I think if I understand your question, I think the biggest favor we can do people, if we're trying to talk to them about leadership related issues is to talk to them about the importance of the leader and the equal the equal importance of the follower. And what does it mean to be a good leader? And what does it mean to be a bad leader? Similarly, what does it mean to be a good follower and a bad follower? How in other words, do we collaborate on this enterprise? Let's say it's a team or whatever that gives everybody a voice where everybody feels they are at different times heard where we are willing to support people if they're exercising good leadership were willing to speak up if they seem to us to be somehow going off the path, We're willing to trade roles from time to time, it's time for me to be the leader and you to be the follower. So I think the biggest favor we can do our students however defined a student might be is to acquaint them with the importance not just of the leader but of the equal importance of all the other players, all the other actors in the system. And as I said earlier, the context, what is the context in which we're talking about here? Is this the team? Is this a classroom? Uh, in other words, give people a much broader conception of what leadership consists of than simply focusing laser like on a single individual. This is as I said at the start a system. Leaders, followers in context. And the more we can inculcating our audiences with the idea that this is a little bit more complicated than just pointing to a single individual. The bigger the favor will be doing them. Excellent. Well thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us appreciate your interest. It was a good conversation. You asked great questions. Thank you very much. The book we're talking we've been talking about was primary followership but you also have another book coming up that you mentioned, I do coming out any day. Hard Times. Leadership in America. Excellent. And is it going to be in indigo or chapters? Oh, I'm sorry, is it going to be one where can people get it bookstore? It's available. Oh yes. Uh, certainly on amazon or online or in stores or whatever. Yes much thank you very much. I appreciate it but bye. I'm positive that ineffectual is not a word. I used it three times but it certainly is not a word and I appreciate dr Kellman for not calling me on it. Uh If that was a great conversation very enjoyable for me. I read her book I was going to say her first book but the first book that I knew about followership how followers are creating change and changing leaders. I read that book about a year ago and thought man this would be so interesting to be so great to have the author on the on the coach cast. And sure enough her new book Hard Times Leadership in America is just out on shelves if books are still sold on shelves but you can certainly get it on amazon now for us. We have um Usa basketball next week. Uh Coach Kevin Sutton from Usa Basketball who worked with the under sixteen's and under 17 he's got some real interesting insights as well as you could well imagine having the opportunity to work at with obviously Georgetown basketball and also USa basketball. So we're excited for that. As for myself I will be in Toronto this weekend working with C. I. B. C. And the team next C. I. B. C. Is supporting 67 athletes financially through mentoring and skills development so that those athletes can help try to find balance between sport and life and achieve all their goals, whether it be career, family and of course athletics heading towards the Toronto 2015 Pan Am Games and presumably brazil 2016. So really excited for that, I'll give you a little bit of an update next week. Thank you all again for listening to the coach cast part of me. You want to try it? No, sure coach, cast, cast coach, cast coach.