Interview with Dr. Suzanne Smith - Disclosure & Barring Service, 2022
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Hello and welcome back to drive time. Community connections. I'm Gavin Winship presenting you two hours of interesting music as well as interviews with people in the community representing all sorts of interest groups and organizations. And today we are very happy to host Dr Suzanne smith in our studios. Hello Suzanne, I'm doing very well. Thank you very much. And Suzanne smith is the director of disclosure of the disclosure and barring service. If I correct, I am the executive director for barring and safeguarding at the disclosure and barring service. Right I see. Thank you very much for the correction. It can be quite difficult getting all these different pieces all together. Please tell us all about what you do then for the disclosure and barring service. Your specific capacities and everything that you know about the service? Its founding its mission. What it does for the community by warding employers away from criminals and abusers. Sure, so disclosure and bar service is what we call a non departmental public body. So it's an arms length body from the Home Office. The Home Office sponsors effectively and people might be more familiar with its predecessor, which was the Criminal Records Bureau CRB. Yes. So before 2012 there existed the Criminal Records Bureau and the Independent safeguarding Authority. And in 2012 legislation was passed to join those two organizations together. And and DBS was born, the disclosure and barring service was was born. So what do we do? Well, we're all about safeguarding really. That's that's what we that's what we're about. That's at the heart of everything we do. And the idea is that we help employers make safer recruitment and employment decisions. And we do that by issuing certificates, disclose criminal records so that an employer can look at those and decide whether or not the person who is applying for the job they're applying for is is suitable to work in that role, given the list of criminal records that they have in front of them. We also bar people from working in certain roles. So we have a statutory duty to maintain two lists, the Children's barred list and the adults barred lists. And we make decisions on receipt of referrals from usually employers, but other organizations such as General Medical Council Nurse, Midwifery Council, etcetera. And we consider whether or not on the balance of probabilities, whether somebody presents a risk to Children or vulnerable adults, and we consider barring them. Yes. Indeed. It's the central duty, after all, it is in the name, I must apologize by the way, in case I occasionally say disbarring. Apparently, it's quite common to accidentally speak with that particular title disclosure and barring clearly a very important service in safeguarding world and in particular for employment. And we can note that the disclosure and barring has recently partnered with the and Craft Trust and supported its major events safeguarding adults. Week I have been involved with safeguarding adults. Week myself, I interviewed Independent Chairman Darren Best of the tees wide safeguarding adults board. And indeed, I have recorded a small segment for their adverts which is included in our package. So stay tuned listeners, You might hear my voice in that particular frontier. It is very important to keep in touch with social services in case you're concerned about anybody in the area including yourself, Suzanne, can you please tell us all about the alliance between DBS and the and Craft Trust or act for short what actors for vulnerable adults and disabled Children and how you work together to protect the vulnerable Yeah, well you've said it really there are highly respected charitable organization and Craft Trust. The focus is on, like you say abuse of disabled Children and adults at risk of abuse. So we've joined with them during the Nationals safeguarding adults. We to really drive home the message about the need to act early if you're concerned that somebody is being abused to prevent abuse from happening and also to stop abuse from happening where it's already taking place. So, and Craft Trust provides lots of training and and contributes to research and supports organizations in their safeguarding duties. So we like to work with the and Craft Trust in saying how we can be part of that support that we provide to organizations the precise details of the information that's crucial. Absolutely. So we're part of a much wider safeguarding landscape and and Craft Trust recognize that and they're a great partner to work with during national safeguarding Adults week. Fantastic. Can you tell us a little bit more than about this landscape? That sounds like a very interesting topic. Are there any other organizations involved? Yes. If you think of all the different organizations who are involved in safeguarding, If you think of the family at the center of this landscape around them, you've got teachers, social workers, police, health visitors, nurses, doctors, everybody in every sort of organization who directly interfaces with with vulnerable people, Children and adults at risk. They they're all part of that voluntary sector are really important as well. House absolutely everyone, all the emergency services. And then you have around those different organizations who provide quality assurance and support to those individuals on the front line? If you will. So you have C. QC off stead different supervisory authorities, regulatory authorities like I said before the Teachers regulation Authority, the nursing Midwifery Council etcetera. And then around that you have another sort of circle if you like. A line of defense and DBS is in there. So we provide really important and unique service in England Wales channel isles and the isle of man. And so you'd miss as if we weren't there, we do provide an essential piece that is unique in the country. How would you emphasize that uniqueness then for the sake of our listeners. What's the most unique thing about the DBS? Nobody else has that statutory duty to bar in England that is just with us. So where all else fails, for example, there might be nothing on the DBS certificate. If I was employing somebody, there might be might be completely clear, but it might be during that employment that the employee becomes concerned that the person presents a risk to Children or vulnerable adults and dismisses them disciplinary. Yeah. And when they finished dismissing them, they would refer to us. They have a legal duty to refer to the barring service and we consider them. And if we bar them, that prevents them, not just from working in that sector or that place, it prevents them from working in that workforce, whether that be with Children or with vulnerable adults, that's a lot of power. Well, it is, and, you know, that will last for life unless somebody successfully appeals the decision that we've made for it to be reviewed. Because there's some new information that comes. So it's an important extra safeguard that fits in. And amongst all those other ones were like a piece of a jigsaw, jigsaw with all these other organizations. I can totally see what you're saying. Yes, very important in the middle of all that. And in case anybody does do something very unfortunate, then they will regret it. I think, which I think we need to make sure that people face up to the consequences of their actions for the sake of protecting the vulnerable. Absolutely. And it is an offense to knowingly employ some somebody who has been barred. So there is that protection there for the public. And it's also an offense for somebody who has been barred to seek work, working with Children and vulnerable adults. So there is that kind of two pronged extra protection for the public to try and keep people who shouldn't be working with Children and vulnerable adults away from that work force, blocking them directly and going after corruption among employers. Very important stuff, emphasis it's just about employment. That's why that part of that jigsaw is we can't stop what you might deem to be an unsuitable person from shopping insane. Just stop going to the park that there are other organizations in place to deal with all these other issues. Jigsaw puzzle. We speak very shortly after safeguarding adults week, which I believe was the only last week actually, I think it was. I think it was actually, yes, we've been very busy at C V F M headquarters actually celebrated the being the awards last friday, which is very prestigious the pleasure of attending myself and took a large number of interviews and photographs should hopefully be on the website very shortly. My boss, IDris rashid is currently editing them for size. So speaking. But adult safeguarding week was the same time as that and I've already mentioned Darren best. I interviewed him for safeguarding adults week. Could you please tell us a little bit more about the aim and purpose of this week how it went and what a difference it has made for the community. Yeah, safeguarding adults week safeguarding adults and safeguarding Children is something, it's easy to close your eyes too sometimes. So, the purpose of national safeguarding adults week is just to get everybody's attention focused on safeguarding adults for that whole week in that period of time and really shine a light on how we need to protect adults at risk and prevent abuse from happening in the first place, as well as reporting it when we see it. So it's a good opportunity to really bring that to people's attention. And so it's intended to support a whole range of different agencies. And so sectors in their safeguarding work that includes community councils, health, faith groups, voluntary sector, etcetera. And so in shining that light and focusing on safeguarding adults for that week, those sectors can can learn a lot during the week. You know, there's lots of webinars, we held some webinars with craft on this topic and people can attend them. They're free and really enhance their knowledge and their expertise around safeguard, it has to be said the entire week was jam packed from events from what I saw as an overview. Much prior to the event itself, every single day was themed around a different issue. That's very impressive that there's so much going on. Can you tell us a little bit more than about all these other different separate issues and really it's not just shining a light is its shining seven lights. Yes, exactly that to start with, it's easy to ignore, it's easy to turn away from the turn a blind eye, it is easy to turn a blind, but I think the importance is seeing what the impact that abuse has on individuals, that's really, really important apart from having severe impacts on mental health, you know, people can actually die as a result of being abused and it might not be that they that they're being physically abused necessarily, but even financial abuse is a huge issue and I know that Teesside safeguarding adults board for exam will be very focused on finance. Have I've seen the billboards around town actually is a huge concern and psychological abuse in general can result in people killing themselves taking their own lives exactly that, or if I've seen it, I've seen in my own career, where somebody feels so affected by the fact that somebody they put all their trust in has robbed them, taken money from them, lie to the in every sense possible it affects me in So where they almost give up, you know, they become they don't trust anybody anymore. They feel their self esteem starts to just fall hearing about this, it's harrowing and I've seen actually happen in front of my eyes and it's really hard to reverse that impact. So prevention is where we need to be and having the community aware of what to look for, when to be suspicious, naturally not being worried about raising the concern if they are having the confidence to speak, If you're wrong, you're wrong. It doesn't matter if something has been investigating, it turns out that's not the case, that's okay. It's nothing nobody is hurt by an investigation. There's no victim. Exactly, but having but not saying and it can actually have a massive impact on somebody. And it's important that we hear the voices of those vulnerable people. And I think that's that's what we all aim to do. Every, every agency and every organization is involved in safeguarding is trying to get that message across. I absolutely, I couldn't agree more Suzanne. I think that's incredibly important to emphasis and indeed, Daryn best emphasis this as well. In his interview, you can listen to that on a number of our websites. Speaking about Middlesbrough, specifically Teesside Darlington, which is your base of operations yard, where I come from, Red car, Cleveland, Hartlepool where my great grandfather comes from. And all these other areas in Teesside and perhaps even the greater Northeast as a whole since apparently 13 groups stretches all the way north to Newcastle and south to haul. Now, that's very impressive. I've been finding all this stuff out, Michael an interview here at C V F. M. One of 4.5. So speaking about Teesside as a whole, what specific needs duties and challenges and goals arise in this domain for our corner of great Britain. What does DBS mean for the borough? So, I think the challenge is that the T side face are what a lot of other areas face. And I think when times get hard and tough, that's when focus on protection of vulnerable adults and Children will sometimes become harder to maintain. So we've been working with voluntary groups and charities in Teesside to provide them with that education and support around the importance of safer recruitment and the role that DBS plays in that, and also about the importance of referring people for barring and knowing that that's their legal duty. So, the challenges, I think are around poverty particularly, and the cost of living crisis gets worse. That is only going to get worse because we know that there is a connection between poverty and abuse and neglect. And we will see when times get hard, we'll see more neglect, we'll see more self neglect, which is a huge issue in the safeguarding adults arena. And it's how as community, we can respond to that, and that's the same as a safer teessiders for lots of areas? It is, it absolutely is listening to what you're saying just there, the emphasis on education is very important. So, what sort of things does the DBS tend to provide in terms of educating people? How do we get people up to speed on what particular topics we have a really, really good outreach team and that we have regionally allocated barring teams as well. So getting people up to speed with the topics around the services that dbs provide through those locally connected individuals from DBS. And we provide webinars, we respond to queries, lots of queries, for example, about what level of check different people should have because it's not straightforward and it's not terribly easy to understand. So it's okay to ask if you're confused. Please check with us. We can fill you in completely. That's very important. We're just working at the moment on more accessible forms of education. So understanding the end to end process of disclosure and barring we're doing in a video format. So be able to access that much more easily. It is very popular video format. It must be said that although we are an audio format at C v F M radio, so keep listening anyway. But something you can, well, audio is also very, very easy to listen to, isn't it? So we're working on and we have produced easy read accessible guidance that helps people understand what the letter that they get. If somebody has referred them for barring, it's sometimes difficult to understand what is that never heard of it, not likely to be barred more than once. And it's not Exactly. So I imagine it must be quite concerning if you receive such a letter to find out that people suspect such a thing. If somebody is innocent and they received such a letter. I imagine that could be itself quite a harrowing experience. But it's important to be fair to them. If they've done wrong, then they must be barred. Yes. If they haven't, then they must not be barred. And the process must be stopped. Clarity is crucial. 100%. And you've hit the nail on the head there really Gavin because we've got two sides of our business. One side is all about safeguarding the other is about protecting civil liberties. So it's the protection of both of those, as you have rightly pointed out, who have been referred who in all innocence should not be barred. You know that we need to we need to release them from that kind of sort of hanging over the head, waiting for a very good poetic reference there. We don't get that very frequently. Radio. Very important when I can explain that afterwards. If anybody's confused sort of damage, you're not going to stab anybody are. We know that's not how the disbarring service works. Barring service. That's right. I did it. I think that was the first time this interview. I got that one wrong. I warned people about it several times, but that's the first time you've actually just lapsed straightened saying this bar in my sincere apologies. Legal thing. The sort of dis Barkley over my head today in this interview. And the other thing that stands out about that thing is the Oh dear. I've already forgotten the education thing that you said. and I think you said something about the online presence have to come back to it. I'm sure we said about having an hour early warning letters as we call them. We've done in an accessible format, so that people who maybe don't have a high reading age will be able to quickly understand what's going on and be able to get the right support and advice. But yes, we do a range of on social media you will have seen on twitter, perhaps we have a range of little video snippets that say, you know, this is how you apply for a basic check, this is how you apply life for a standard or enhanced check and this is the process. So we're working on all of these all the time and some of them are already out there. We have a range of guidance and actual outreach workers and are regionally allocated barring teams are there to speak to as well, That's what's really important as well. It's not all faceless, you can actually speak to somebody and just given some support and advice. I think that's absolutely crucial. It's a big part of the reason why we do these interviews face to face and we can vouch for themselves. Now, I'm sure that I do have that question in the back of my head, I'm going to try and see if I can remember that without spending too long on that one, we can move to the next part in our little questions set up over here. T side is an increasingly diverse region. It is not overall a very diverse region yet is actually one of the least diverse in the country. But it is going up and up and up and up here at community voices. FM. We cater to all minority groups in the greater region. We are primarily based in the asian area of Middlesborough. Our station manager, idris rashid is a veteran of the area. He originates from cash Pakistan. So within that context, what particular challenges may concern people from these minority and marginalized groups in the area. And what out of the range of sub services of the DBS can best be offered to diverse employers, diverse employees and such employment situations. It's all about understanding. And that's the challenge. Is making what is quite a complex legal construct, something that people can readily understand. So when you go for a job, you will be in with Children and vulnerable adults and you're going to be working closely with Children, vulnerable adults, you will be asked to disclose any cautions convictions and relevant information that are likely to going to appear on your DBS certificate. If you get the job, usually, you'll you'll be asked to produce a DBS certificate and that will be an enhanced one or an enhanced with barred list. One knowing what to disclose and knowing what's likely to be on that certificate because there's legislation that filters off some after a period of time, certain cautions and convictions. It's quite complicated. So the challenge in a multicultural, very diverse community is making sure every single member of the community is aware of is aware of that understands that. So we it is, it is beholden on us to make it as understandable as possible. And again, that's where our outreach team coming. Really really, really valuable in working with community groups to help them get that understanding and just answer some of the queries and questions that are thrown out which there must be many yes. If people are going to have an equal opportunity to secure employment then understanding the DBS process and being able to understand it thoroughly. Is important in that dare I say crucial. I think the question that I was trying to figure out earlier on was to do with communication. There's some big topics here and it can be easy to get bogged down in large complicated words and language but it is crucial to speak in the local lingo to get people to understand it in terms that are familiar to themselves. So is there like a multiple level thing is what I'm thinking out loud in my head right now where there's like a simple english version say, you know how Wikipedia has a simple english counterpart where people can read without any long latinate words, no actualization or anything else like that or discombobulate ori parliament but just simple english words. And then for those who are able to take the complicated language, can they go straight to the heart of the matter and read the documentation? I think the important thing is that all the documentation that's available on our website is understandable. It should be understandable, anybody should be able to understand it and if necessary, we will have that translated. If somebody cannot understand it, then we can have it translated. And there's information on the website about how to ask for that. But you can't get away from the fact that there is a little bit of that is still unfamiliar and it is going to be complex to somebody. We've just done a huge piece of work with our barring letters with local community groups and will this is this is kind of how we ensure that our readability of our information is where it should be for the for the average member of the community. And we've done a huge amount of work with community groups to say which what do you understand what you don't understand. And we've made that letter or those letters fit with that level of understanding. There will always be people who do don't understand it for whatever reason. And for those individuals, it's really important that they get in touch with those and ask for us to produce a version that they can understand. There might be people, for example who want their DBS certificate in braille. Of course different needs. Yes, marginalized person right there. And then of course the type of person who could be subject to terrible abuse. Exactly. Very relevant. Very relevant indeed. Suzanne, please tell us all about your own involved with GPS and its concern for background checks and employment security. Prior callings perhaps your origins in the sector and how you came to rise to the executive director. That's right. Please tell us all about it. Okay. Right. So I when I left university I did english and drama totally unrelated but I wanted to work in the health service. So were trained as a nurse and then became interested in child protection and health is it in particular is very, very focused on child protection. So soon after qualifying I got a job as a health is to train to be a health visitor and then became a specialist in child protection and then adult protection as well. So I worked my way up to nurse consultant and assistant director of nursing where safeguarding was my main portfolio. And then in 2017 I saw a job for executive director for borrowing and safeguarding at the disclosure and barring service and thought that looks very interesting. And so I applied for and was fortunate enough to get it. And yes, so I got the job at the disclosure and barring service and have really enjoyed emphasizing the safeguarding role of the DBS and how important it is to that, as I've described before, that wider safeguarding partnership and the importance of safe for recruitment and employment. So would you say then that even long before all of this, during the time when you were studying english and drama at university or perhaps even in your schooling days, would you say that these thoughts were on your mind, these interests? You know what I always hated? The things that bothered me most were people being hurt, bullied. Always upset me. I was the same with animals. I couldn't bear it if I became a vegetarian when I was 17, just because I just don't like hurting animals vegetarian. And it is something about protection protecting something that can't protect itself even from being a kid in school. That was DNA absolutely admirable. When I see an animal that's unhappy, my heart goes out to it straight away and I just want to get away. You're hurting it easy. Easy if they'll let me That is obviously wild animals can be a bit cagey as we all know, ironically they're not caged yet, but they're afraid of that in their trust and all these sort of things which I thought about. Maybe asking more about the child protection stuff since my previous interview with Darren focused on the adults and he was very keen to emphasize that adults need protecting too. But Children are the primary concern, aren't they? Children and adults absolutely the vulnerable members of our society. I mean, Children are very because babies under boy, babies under one are more likely to be killed and they have no voice. It's easy to ignore their voice. So it's really important and it's easy to abuse them as well because most abuse goes on in families. Unfortunately, I do actually have a relevant story. I once knew of a kid who's four years old now, but when he was a one year old boy, his mother used to throw things at him because she was addicted to drugs and she wanted him to stop crying. And this is the same woman who would pose happy and smiling with the kid on facebook. But when the cameras are off and behind closed doors, throwing things and screaming at them. And that just makes my blood boil, that makes my blood absolutely boil. It's so crucial that we do something about this. And if that woman were to apply for a job at a daycare center beyond highest concern to make sure that you're not going anywhere near a daycare, even letting you near your. Yes, that is just yes. And that's something that we do take into account when we're looking at borrowing cases. If somebody has done something as you just described in their private life and they've had the child removed from them, but they want to go and work with Children in regulated activity setting, then we take into account what's happened in their life as well. So it's really important. So I think that just about rounded up Suzanne, it's been such a pleasure to have you in here. Do you have any final thoughts and personal messages for our listeners at CV FM Radio? Yes. So I think my final words would be to remind everybody that safeguarding is absolutely everybody's business, not just everybody's business, but it's everybody's responsibility. And if you are worried about something or you've seen something or somebody told you something that makes you think that person is at risk of abuse, then it's so important to report it. It doesn't necessarily mean that somebody will be convicted of something but there are other routes that the public can be protected and that includes information that might appear on a DBS certificate or it might be the fact that we can bar somebody. So, but none of that will happen if somebody doesn't, the alarm isn't raised. Yes, absolutely. And with that Suzanne, it has been such a pleasure to have you in the studio. Thank you very much for coming to see the FM Radio shake of the hand. Stay tuned for more interesting music here on C V. F. M one at 4.5. I'm Gavin Winship and this is dr time community connections